Jul 19, 2020
Wade Brown
While there are plenty of opportunities to be angry, we don't want to be angry. We don't. Joshua was a beautiful, beautiful young man. And Joshua is not suicide. Joshua is a 14-year-old who did an adult thing in a moment of weakness and we'll never know why. He's a kid that did an adult thing. He's not suicide. And so, you know, it's important for us to demonstrate to our kids. And I try to do it at work as well. We choose love and grace. We do.
INTRO
This is the second Handle with Care episode where a father talks about the death of his teen by suicide. If you didn’t get a chance to listen the first conversation, I would encourage you, after listening to this episode, to also listen to our last episode where Jason Seiden talks about his daughter Elle.
My guest today is Wade Brown. His full name is Edmund Wade Brown the 4th. His parents were convinced that he was going to be a girl and went to the hospital expecting a Jennifer. When a little boy arrived, they waited two days before naming him after his father.
Wade is the Vice President of Field Operations for GE, covering the Central United States.
Wade Brown
So diagnostic imaging, patient care you've covered has put ventilators and anesthesia machines on the front page. Well. And so, so all of the products that G.E. Healthcare makes and sells into our health care customers, my team supports.
Wade manages a large team and they have been especially busy and vital in the fight against COVID-19.
Wade Brown
I've always compared it to my big family. I've led large teams for the better part of 20 years now and there's so many similarities to that.
- Liesel Mertes
I could I can only read them. I only have four children, which is more than many, but less than you. And it is like it's like field marshalling. Sometimes it's just the logistics. I totalizing, let alone everybody's like emotional moment and the particular care that they need. And so, I hear you. But I'm sure that I only hear part of what you're lived experience has been like.
- Wade Brown
It's I always liken it to controlled chaos. You know, there's somebody ready to break loose at any given moment, and I've got it.
You heard the reference above to a large family. Wade is the father of nine children.
- Wade Brown
So, I have book-end girls. I have.
- Wade Brown
Jordan is is 30 and Josephine is nine. And so, seven boys in the middle. And so, we had Jordan and then and then Jacob. They came very quickly in our marriage. And and then Jonathan, our third child. So, we were boom, boom, boom. You know, still, you know, young, married, three kids and the J. Alliteration kicked in. So, we were Jordan and Jonathan. And then. And then, when Cynthia became pregnant for the fourth time, Jared was an eight.
- Wade Brown
So we. So we stayed on the J's. And so my kids are infamously known as the J kids.
And Wade is joining us today to talk about his son, Joshua, who took his own life a year and a half ago at the age of 14. Wade shares about the ripple effects of the loss, how his community came around him, and how he carries Joshua into his life in 2020.
- Wade Brown
I've I've got on my board here at home from Ernest, Ernest Hemingway. Right. Hard clear about what hurts. And so listen to these discussions. And I've been on stage in front of hundreds of people multiple times. I've been on Zoom call, you know, Skype and Zoom calls with literally thousands of people. So. It's good to talk about it. It's a story that needs to be shared and talked about. It's just a mission that I'll have the rest of my life in this club area.
- Wade Brown
Well, and, you know, kind of the heart of the centerpiece for our chat today is it's Joshua. And so, you know, we've got, you know, Joshua 1:9, you know, be strong and courageous as big as has been and will forever be, you know, an important passage for us and the people around us. And I've even got a I've got an adult kid now that's wearing it on his chest.
For those of you that are not familiar with Joshua 1:9, it is a verse from the Bible where God tells His people to be strong and courageous as they prepare to face a host of challenges and conflict moving into a new land.
Wade also loves the rainbow as a symbol of promise and a reminder to talk to kids about the impact of suicide. So much so that his wife has banned him.
- Wade Brown
I've been banned from Etsy, actually severe. I had to get permission before I can go on Etsy because I just I, I just couldn't get enough stained glass in. We've just got some beautiful stained glass pieces here. And one of them actually commissioned a lady in St. Louis. She's a retired mathematical engineer, just a brilliant, lovely person. And we connected through Etsy and then and they kind of became friends. And so she made a custom piece that I have here at my and my home office.
- Wade Brown
And it's just magnificent. It's beautiful. I could I could send you a picture after work.
- Liesel Mertes
I would love to see that work. I imagine or touched on this more in our conversation. But. You know, when you have a child die, there's such a profound absence, you know, that there's a there's a spiritual, emotional absence, but there's this very physical void. And to be able to have things in our physical realm that are are literally touchstones, whether that's, you know, something something to be able to look at or touch.
- Liesel Mertes
It's is it's I find it to me.
- Liesel Mertes
And for many, that physical grounding in the reality of life, they haven't just vanished and become this ethereal, like nothingness like this. There's a person who had weight and space in our family. And so I I hear how that's important. And I'm sure I'm sure the artisans of Etsy are missing you. I have my own rabbit holes with stuff like that.
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MUSICAL TRANSITION
As Wade and I began our conversation, he reflected on how the loss and tragedy of Joshua has uniquely equipped him to lead his team during the COVID crisis.
- Wade Brown
And this has been part of my journey the last year and a half of my life. Liesel is is there for for me personally and with my team that's been with me through the Joshua experience.
- Wade Brown
It almost served as a bit of a preparatory experience because the connections that we have, the culture that that I've talked about it and written about it, the culture, family, the culture of caring is real in my space. And and so when COVID turned on and we had to go to, you know, to our daily stand up call first thing every morning, you know, with 100 people on the phone trying to take on the spot decisions because there were so many unknowns.
- Wade Brown
I think we were better able to administer our way, especially through those early days where there was so much trepidation because of the connections across our team and my connection personally with the people that I get the privilege leading because of the Joshua experience. Now, would we have done well, having not had that? I'm sure we would have. But it was a it was unique for us there like that. We didn't have to. We have to warm up for it.
- Wade Brown
We were already warm, like we were more ready to go. And there was a higher level of trust because of that, because it's not just what I found. The backside of the you know, the health care phenomenon isn't just that you have to go into those places. It's dead. You have to go home and be around your family. So that's actually where most of the fear and concern came from. And so, you know, for us to be able to have, you know, I believe I believe a higher level of trust and caring for each other helped helped us do better and be better and be quicker in our response.
- Wade Brown
I believe that. And I've seen other teams perform through this. And so I would say that we we stack pretty well.
- Wade Brown
And you know, just how we how we moved through an incredibly an incredibly volatile and it's still volatile still. But, you know, ninety hundred days ago, there were infinitely more questions than there were answers.
- Liesel Mertes
Right. Well, and what would I hear in that? And I want to dig more in a bit into the specificity of it. But the sense that, you know, through your own disruptive life event you had you had led with the particular vulnerability of. Needing care and receiving care from your team and that that lived experience. I mean, there can still be in organizations are given teams or with particular managers.
- Liesel Mertes
This sense of a very clear distinction like this is your work life. And this is your home life. And the two do not intersect like you. You just manage your stuff and then you show up and perform.
- Liesel Mertes
And the realization for your team and for you of, you know, I'm a holistic person and I'm bringing this really hard thing to work. And I I need and appreciate your support. And I want to give that to you. If you're going through something hard, it seems like it. It set the stage for being able to receive the current context in like a healthier much more giving way.
- Wade Brown
Yeah, for sure. There's no doubt about it. I had I listened into your last posted podcast with Fred Brown and.
As a sidenote, the interview with Fred Brown is tremendous. Fred talks about the challenge of carrying grief and loss as a Black man and CEO. If you haven’t had a chance to listen, make it the next in your queue.
- Wade Brown
Yes. And I heard him mention about, you know, for years being being the caregiver, not the receiver of care and raising, of course, that that that's me for sure. I mean, I'm a I'm a I'm a dad of a big family love. That's my greatest achievement. And it always will be. I've led big teams for two decades and I've been a people leader for most of the 32 years I've been in my career. I'm I'm a coach.
- Wade Brown
I'm a caregiver. I don't receive care. And you know it. There were a couple of things that happened through the grieving experience with Joshua that just had a 100 percent transference into into my workspace. And a couple of those things were profound. And one of them was my first opportunity. This was May of last year. So this was within four months of Joshua's death. I had the opportunity go on stage and address the extended services leadership team for each four GE health care here in the United States and Canada.
- Wade Brown
So that's, that's my extended work family. So that was five hundred plus people. And and I did that early on in the two and half days we were there. So the two days that followed Liesel were just were transformative for me. And that what I discovered, what came back to me in the 48 hours that after I walked off stage until it was time to get everybody to leave and go home, I had four dozen, you know, up close, some between 40 and 50 people.
- Wade Brown
I wasn't counting. I just know that it was four dozen ish. People pulled me aside and tell me their very personal stories. And it wasn't ready for it. Quite frankly, it overwhelming. I found myself back in my room crying a couple of times and calling calling Cynthia going, oh, my gosh, my God. I didn't realize what was what I was what was going to come back to me when I did this. Getting on stage was hard enough.
- Wade Brown
But then the stories that came back to me were were deep. They were profound. They were heartbreaking. And. But what I learned from that and what I've talked about is everybody has their Joshua. And I think there were people want to talk and they want to share and they want to feel supported and they want to give support. Just just an incredible experience.
- Wade Brown
And with respect to receiving care, it really wasn't until late last year. It was in the fall for sure, before November ish. My family had engaged with Riley Hope and Healing for counseling and support. Are you familiar with Riley?
- Liesel Mertes
Yes.
- Wade Brown
And so so Mike, Cynthia and the younger kids were in that, and it was with success. And I had just never been inclined to seek that kind of help or support. And so I did. And it was an and it was also with the encouragement of cup of a couple of people that are closest to me at work because they could see it, they could feel for me just the ups and downs.
- Wade Brown
And because I had for the you know, for the seven, eight, nine months prior I had carried my family, I had carried my community, the homeschool kids that I had mentioned before, like, we have a tremendous a very large circle of friends and and support.
- Wade Brown
And so I was doing all the talking and I was trying to provide that that comfort and their therapeutic support for everyone around me, but none for myself. No, it was incredible. Just that it was it it still to this day, I mean, I have a whiteboard and a notebook, you know, just full of notes and thoughts and and and so where I'm going with that ultimately is what I've tried to do then, especially through COVID. But it started late last year and it's and then I continued it into the new year. And then, of course, COVID gave it a whole kind of change.
- Wade Brown
The color of the mosaic is weave. I and my team host mental health, stress, anxiety. We do awareness calls. We bring guest speakers on. And the first thing we did when COVID four started was about managing stress and anxiety at home. It wasn't about were. It was about your personal space. And we had a wonderful doctor come on in. And what happened on the other side of that, Liesel, was was amazing because the distribution list on the Skype broadcast, it went out to, I think, about six hundred people. Then we expanded up to about 850 people. And then when we got the count afterwards, we had like twenty five hundred people on it now.
- Wade Brown
But there is a multiplier that comes of that, because I got numerous notes from people that were on that listen to the broadcast and participated in the Q&A that they didn't do it just themselves because everybody's working from home.
- Wade Brown
They had brought their high school kids, their college kids, their their partners or spouses. There were families listening to this. So you know that now you're like four to five thousand people. And so but that's it's important for us to put it out there and and have those expressions.
- Wade Brown
Everybody has their Joshua. And I think that that's not the case. I think is I don't think it's genuine. I think it's naive. And I actually think it's a bit dangerous for the health of the organization because you're just ignoring your comment before we're all holistic people.
- Wade Brown
You can't you can't cleanly segregate work from your home life. You can't. And so and so why would you why would you try and I think in you know, early in my career, I wouldn't have been so open to that.
- Wade Brown
But certainly the last 15 years and now with with what's happened with Joshua, I'm all in. I just don't want a complete belief system that has matured and expanded because of this.
- Liesel Mertes
Well, and man, absolutely. I resonate with that deeply as it relates to my work of building the capacity for support within teams. And just the like you said, there's there's a cost to ignoring it.
- Liesel Mertes
There is is not a zero sum game. There's a cost to the stability of your people. You know, there's only there's only so long that you can hold it all together before it starts coming out in your ability to play well with others or complete tasks or in your physical health. You know that the ties to, you know, unreconciled stress and how it can come out in the winds, the body keeps the score.
- Wade Brown
Yeah, really true.
- Liesel Mertes
I, I want to I want to back up just a little bit because, you know, even the statement everyone has their Joshua, tell me a little bit about Joshua. Where does he fall in your birth order? And we'll go from there.
- Wade Brown
Yeah, sure. Well, he was just a beautiful young man. So he's number seven. He's my my sixth son. My seventh. My seventh child. And just a beautiful, beautiful young man. If you saw his image on unlink and it just, you know, platinum blond hair, blue eyes, six foot two at 14 years old. So a couple of my kids have been early bloomers. Joshua certainly was more than those, you know, six to at 14 and just absolutely strong as a horse.
- Wade Brown
And any head that his hair, when he teased it up, was six five maybe.
- Wade Brown
That boy loved his hair.
- Wade Brown
But he just just a fantastic kid. We saw I mean, he was in two different youth groups, played on two different basketball teams. Was just, you know, we never know. No trouble at all.
- Wade Brown
And, you know, with a family my size and having been a dad for 30 years, I've had a lot of, you know, a lot of conversations with teenagers and in college age kids. And, gosh, even after college, it's still got stuff to talk about. And Joshua just was we just not it wasn't it wasn't like that with him.
- Wade Brown
He was just just so good and pure. A great friend. And because of because of his his size at a young age was always girls following him because he was just, you know, bigger, stronger than the other kids that were in his class.
- Wade Brown
And so just a beautiful, beautiful young man and. Yeah. Yeah.
- Liesel Mertes
I love that. Right. Tell me a little bit about the events that led to his death.
- Wade Brown
Yeah. So we were so so with respect to, you know, him taking his life, committing suicide, were there were there was nothing. We had no indicators. It done his homework and clean the kitchen. Cynthia was at a book club meeting with some of her other friends. And so he was here with my two younger kids. He had done his homework, cleaned the kitchen, made sure the kids were safe, and then came down into my office and wrote us a note on my whiteboard.
- Wade Brown
And then and then he he took his life.
- Wade Brown
So I was in Chicago on one business, on the perfect I'm a road warrior. I've traveled most of my 32 years. My family's very accustomed to that. And so I was we were finished with our meeting. We'd gotten back to the hotel after dinner and there were three or four of us sitting, having a glass of wine and and just just talking. And we were just hanging out a bit before before going back to our rooms.
- Wade Brown
And I got the 911 text message from from Cynthia. And so I called. She told me the news. I had gone into a back hallway to talk to her. And I came back out and told my colleagues that I had to go. And, of course, they could tell that something was wrong. So I share with them what had happened. And, of course, we all embraced. Cried a bit, and then, of course, they wanted to drive me back to Indianapolis like, no.
- Wade Brown
I got this. And so I drove back to Indy, got home in the middle of the night. You know, of course, all my mom was here and all of the, you know, the the emergency response, the first responders, all of that was was done. Joshua wasn't here any longer. And so it was, you know, just sitting here with my, you know, my family just trying to understand, you know, what had happened.
- Wade Brown
And and, you know, so it's it's really it's difficult to explain, you know, really. But what I would you know what I've I've tried to the word that just I think. Describes best. What that felt like, it was just the suddenness. It was it just in a in an instant. In an instant. You know, you go from a book, you go to a before and after, like there's a whole line, a line that strong there and it's still in it.
- Wade Brown
It's still there. And it's never going to go away. And so it's not moving on from it. It's it's moving on with it, as has has been infamously said. And I I believe that.
- Wade Brown
And so, you know, the the if so, then there's and it's kind of the multiple frontiers that you have to manage. It's of course I have a job, I have a team. I support account of me. What's going to happen there?
- Wade Brown
I've got a family that I've got. I've got to get through this. What's going to happen there? We've got a community. You know, Josh was was was very well known and and and very much loved by a lot of people. And so, you know, how do you kind of how do you patch that together and and push through? So, you know, it was it's. The suddenness and grief is a nasty announced, a nasty monster.
- Wade Brown
You know, it doesn't. It doesn't no place. It certainly has a purpose.
- Liesel Mertes
You talk about the unpredictability of grief. Which absolutely I am. I find that so so you're wearing multiple different hats. Your your hat as a spouse, as, you know, a manager, also as a parent. I'm struck that there's something pretty profound about walking with your children through their own grief and their different responses. What was that asking of you? Even even in how it set you up for in November, realizing, oh, I also need counselling?
- Wade Brown
Well, it's I think, you know, one of the things that we tried to recognize Cynthia and I get when you're just you're. In the immediacy of the moment is the grief is different for everyone. And and we we wanted to be very, very careful with our kids not to try to superimpose what we were feeling on them and and vice versa. And so especially in the you know, the I would say through much of last year. So it's not it's not the same today.
- Wade Brown
Much more so, you know, in that and in our first year, so to speak, because you have so many firsts. You know, Joe Joshua's birthday, you know, those those things you have you kind of kind of step through. We've tried we've tried to with our kids like it's it's OK, it's OK to talk. It's OK to express the Riley open healing counselling and and therapy, especially for my two younger kids, has been extraordinary.
- Wade Brown
I will always be indebted to those folks. But really, it's that it's OK to talk about especially having so many boys in my family, not necessarily a boy versus girl thing, because my daughter, my oldest daughter is much like me. She's she tends to be, you know, keep, you know, keep those things inside a bit like I do. So what I tried to do for my family, demonstrably up to and including, you know, seeking some some help myself late last year was to was to put reflections out there and to be vulnerable and to talk about it and to cry.
- Wade Brown
And so that they would feel that it was that it was OK. And I've done the same thing at work, too, with respect to grief. And so, you know, we talk about the interlaces between work and home have taken that same approach with the folks that are my immediate senior staff and the people that I'm closest to and that it's OK to talk about it. It's OK to cry. It's OK to recognize when it's there, when it's got you how to see it, and then kind of how to work your way through that grief.
- Wade Brown
So there's a bit of a long answer, I hope. I hope that helps that we still we still ongoing with my kids, you know. I guess it's not with the same frequency through much of 2019, but, you know, daily reflections, daily reminders of hope and of grace and of love, so that we just felt that it was very important for my kids to see from me. And Cynthia would agree as well that while there are plenty of opportunities to be angry, we don't want to be angry.
- Wade Brown
We don't. Joshua was a beautiful, beautiful young man. And Joshua is not suicide. Joshua is a 14 year old who did an adult thing in a moment of weakness and we'll never know why. He's a kid that did an adult thing. He's not suicide. And so, you know, it's important for us to demonstrate to our kids. And I try to do it at work as well. We choose love and grace. We do. And and to the greatest extent that we can model that and encourage others to see and feel the same thing.
- Wade Brown
I think that's a that's a purpose and a mission that I'll have. For the rest of my life, I've got I've got another expression here on my whiteboard and I'm sure this one and messages through the COVID period at work just because of the high level of stress and anxiety. And it says if you're going through hell, keep going. When you're reduced to nothing but soul, you radiate an extraordinary power. And that power is called grace. So let it shine.
- Wade Brown
And and I believe that. I believe that. So that was long answer to your question. So there you go. This is that you could talk about for a very long time because you're not a single way to express it.
- Wade Brown
You know, it's it's because it it it's it changes over time. And the intensity is never the same. You know, grief is a grief is an incredible an incredible experience. I don't know how else to say.
- Liesel Mertes
I am. I love that quote on the whiteboard. I can imagine some people as they think about their own journey with grief. I'm thinking, man, I. I feel completely reduced. And what was revealed was not Grace. It was some pretty ugly stuff. Did you feel. Have you felt those moments as well? I'm utterly reduced and I'm not finding myself as a graceful person right now?
- Wade Brown
For sure. Hundred percent. Absolutely. Absolutely. And in my I mentioned Tina before, she's she's incredible. And she has been she's been a life partner for. For Cynthia and I. She she watches me like a hawk. And she can tell if I need a break. If I'm if I am. And distant as she's she's dialed in and she's tuned in to me for sure. And she'll tell Cynthia that those two probably talked to each other more than they talk to me.
- Wade Brown
So and I'm lucky and fortunate and blessed to have that.
- Liesel Mertes
Tell me tell me a little bit more about that, because it touches on these very important aspects, I think, of self-awareness and self care that in good times can be less on the forefront. What are some of the things that are signposts or signals to you of like, oh, oh, man, I'm struggling, I'm on the brink of being overwhelmed? What are some of the things that give either Tina or you pause?
- Wade Brown
Well, you know, Liesel, I have I've said it before.
- Wade Brown
I have that I just have the distinct privilege of leading women and men that do extraordinary things within within our health care industry. And my job. Is to make sure that they can do that safely, that they can do that to the best of their ability so that they are productive for themselves, for our company and for the customers that we support. And so I take very, very seriously the fact that the things that I do and say have a direct effect on others and their ability to be happy in their career and take and to provide for their families and actually meditate and pray on that.
- Wade Brown
It would not be truthful to say every day. But darn near every day of my life. It's part of my my spiritual journey.
- Wade Brown
And I take it very, very seriously.
- Wade Brown
And so I do a lot of one on ones. I have a big team and a big kind of stakeholder network that I have to stay in touch with. So I like last week, for example, coming back from our vacation in Charleston. Now, I probably I I had three dozen one on one calls. And so when I on the phone with a director or a senior director or a supervisor or could be a customer, but it's usually, gee folks, I have to be my best.
- Wade Brown
They're there. It's almost like an athlete on the field. You know, it's like you. They deserve my very best. And so what I've learned to recognize is that when it's not there, it's just not there. And and so what Tina and I talk about and what she helps me keep a pulse on is if I'm just down and I'm not going to be able to give that that next person my best, it's better to pause. It's better to just wait.
- Wade Brown
And the folks around me know that. And they're comfortable with it. Know, no, there's not been any repercussions from that whatsoever. In fact, I think there's it's been the opposite.
- Wade Brown
It's just that ability to say, you know what, I'm not OK today and I need to I need to do something different or I need to take a break or I need to get out of my home office, especially during this COVID stuff.
- Wade Brown
So that's you know, that's probably the the best kind of example I can share is I can I've I've just I can recognize when those feelings are there. And through counselling have also come to understand that you can't just shove them aside because they don't go away. And they're not like fine wine that you get, they will get better.
- Liesel Mertes
So they don't get better with age.
- Wade Brown
They don't age well.
- Liesel Mertes
Well, I'm struck that it's a choice towards brave vulnerability and being able to ask for that space. I'm struck that, especially for classically high performers, that that can be wrapped up in some feelings of self judgement or shame of like I shouldn't need to ask for this. I'm used to being able to perform easily and consistently. Did you encounter some of those initial feelings of shame or I should just be able to push through this? And if you did, how did you work through some of those feelings?
- Wade Brown
We thought so, yes. And it still happens today. I mean, it's not something that you just turn off. It's just something that you kind of experientially you learn to recognize and work through. And and.
- Wade Brown
Again, through, you know, the chats that I've had with Elizabeth, it that really hope and healing, it's important to, it's important to do that and and allow it to have its moments so that you can address it and not try to just stick it in your back pocket. But shame, I don't know that shame might be a bit of a strong way to to say it. But I as I said before, I take I take my job very, very seriously, as we all do.
- Wade Brown
And that doesn't necessarily make me special or unique.
- Wade Brown
But I know the things that I do and say have a direct effect on others. And so I and I want to give them my best. And if I can't do it in that moment, it's OK to wait for a moment when I can.
- Wade Brown
So but I still it still comes up for sure. Like even, you know, you know, going through second quarter clothes and what is arguably the most difficult financial operational quarter I've ever had to lead a team through, you know, did trying to get to the finish line and, you know. You're like, OK. I have no choice. I have to push through because now people are depending on this financially. Right. And so you have to muscle your way through some of those things.
- Wade Brown
It's not an absolute either or if they're right.
- Wade Brown
Like they're still going to be those moments. You know what? Yeah. Just gotta go. Just get to bed. Just go. But that's not all the time by any means.
- Wade Brown
And and I'm also a year and a half removed from Joshua's death. So it's not it's not like it's not like it was, you know, a year ago this time it's you know, it's it's changed. It's adapted. It's evolving. So and so by and so is my support network.
- Liesel Mertes
You know, frankly, you've you've touched on some of the things that are at work, whether that was resonance with people that came up to you after speaking or the support that Tina and your mom provided over the phone. What were other things that were especially meaningful to you in the aftermath of Joshua's death that you said, well, this like this meant something deeply to me. I'm so glad that people moved towards me in this way.
- Wade Brown
Yeah, that's so. This is an easy one. And it was Joshua's visitation and his funeral. And we had we estimated between nine hundred and a thousand people. Wow. Came for Joshua's visitation.
- Wade Brown
And so we were at the church. And of course, there's lots of people there. And it's it's a significant emotional event. And I knew I was going to have some visitors from from GE and from Roche because Roche is local. And, of course, you know, I've got the folks that I work with actually as well. What I wasn't expecting or prepared for was that it would be like a hundred from all over. I mean, people flew in from all over the United States to be there with.
- Wade Brown
With me and my family, and when I'm in this greeting line, you know, it's, again, this sudden it's like a week before that. None of this existed. And so now you're thrust into this and you're at the church and it's it's your choice and it's for your son. It's for your child.
The company headquarters are in Milwaukee and a group of his colleagues chartered a bus to come down to the funeral. And they arrived wearing team fleeces that Wade had passed out earlier at the team retreat. This visual display of solidarity was incredibly powerful.
- Wade Brown
Oh they were filing in through the door in those blue pullovers and it was, it was surreal. I, I, I've never, I've never felt moved that way. Really in my life. And it was it was extraordinary. And then soon after I started recognizing Roche faces as well from my team that I led while I was at Roche Diagnostics. Obviously, some from here from Indianapolis, but also people that had traveled in from from all over the country.
- Wade Brown
And it was incredible, really. It was incredible. And then the next day at his funeral. Not all, but many of those same faces were still there, especially from, you know, from my GE crew. And so just to see them when I was giving Joshua's eulogy served as an incredible source of strength. It didn't make me sad. It actually it actually was fortifying, if I could say it.
- Wade Brown
And it helped me deliver a really, really difficult message. And which. And the promise for Joshua that pulled forward that we pulled forward from that eulogy. My team has helped. Kerry,
- Wade Brown
The second one, there's a bit of a long answer to your question, the second one we so already touched on before and there's been lots of private moments. There's there's there there's too many. And there's been so many private moments. Just calls, text messages. I get I get pictures of rainbows every day of my life from all over the world, literally.
- Wade Brown
And it's because of the promise for Joshua. But the when I spoke on stage last May. 2019. And what happened in the two days that followed. Liesel, as I shared before, I, I just never experienced anything like that in my life in it and it's in it. It had two clear sides to it. It was the one side just being oh my gosh, that was hard. And I wasn't, I wasn't ready. I wasn't mentally or emotionally prepared for what came to me in a couple of days, even beyond that, beyond just those two days.
- Wade Brown
But certainly in those 48 hours, because you're held hostage at a meeting resort, you know, you're you're in a hostage situation.
- Liesel Mertes
So you may see. But still a hostage situation.
- Wade Brown
It you're right. So you're on a compound, you know, with with 500 plus people. So there's no place to hide. But the but the just this real at the other side of it was just this realization that and everybody's got it. And people want to talk about it. And to the extent that we can foster an environment where people can do that and feel comfortable. I think it's additive to, you know, to everything that we do.
- Wade Brown
And we represent, you know, as a team and as a company and and as friends. Frankly, I work with people that I would do anything for. And I would have I would have held that belief before the Joshua experience. But certainly now I've just the personal and public, private and public support that I've received from people that I work with. And this has been has been extraordinary.
- Liesel Mertes
I am. I always like to ask as well, because we learn both from people's positive experiences but also from the negative ones. Lots of times when people are people get uncomfortable as a default, sometimes with other people's pain, and they find themselves saying or doing things that kind of missed the mark. As you think back on a town like a lot of positive experiences, what are those that you would say, oh, man, like this? This was just bad. I would I would counsel people. Don't ever do this. This really missed the mark with me.
- Wade Brown
I up I got some of those. I call it. I'm sorry. That used to be well but it's but it's just part of the journey.
- Wade Brown
I mean, really. And and so it's not all rainbows and butterflies. There's there's also been some in, you know, some intensely inappropriate moments. And so I've I've definitely had a couple of those. I think. You know, soon after Joshua died, this was within. In fact, it was live. I did a I did it. I took my team into the woods again. So you'll see a trend here. Liesel, I like to I like to do meetings that are different.
- Wade Brown
And so I love getting off the grid because then you can just be you can be yourself better. We had done that. My my boss, Rob, had actually encouraged me to cancel the meeting and just can just wait. I strongly disagreed. I needed to be with my people. And so Joshua died January 30th. And so this was in in late March. So this was just a couple months later. And and I needed to see my people.
- Wade Brown
I needed to be able to tell them, one, that I was OK. And two, that I loved them for everything that they had done for Cynthia and myself and our kids. But that first night, there were a handful of us that were having an evening libation. And somebody looked at me and said, "Wow, was Joshua bipolar?" And I, I, I was it took my breath away. It just the timing. It was just it was it was it was.
- Wade Brown
Wow. I can't believe you just asked me that question about my about my dead child. And that one sticks with me. And so I that, as you can tell, that when it came came out pretty quickly. Yeah. There's a there's a I call it fresh eyes.
- Wade Brown
So when you get when you see them
- Liesel Mertes
Just for a second, because I think it's I want to unpack that because I think it's a there's perhaps something profound that did that didn't feel particularly hurtful because it felt detached or because it felt judgmental or not hitting you? Like as you think about why that comment hit you the way it did. Like what? What is at the root of some of how I just felt so jarring?
- Wade Brown
I think that the words you use judgmental is probably appropriate.
- Wade Brown
It just it felt like we had we had and we still to this day, we do. That's not what we believe to be the case. Joshua, there were no no expressions or symptoms or manifestations of a mental the mental health issue or issues. And certainly had had we had never sought any counseling or help for any symptoms with Joshua because there weren't any. And so but it wasn't just that that I was asked that question. It was inter-group price.
- Wade Brown
And it was just inappropriate. And I. And it it it lacked empathy. Yeah. It just it was completely void of any empathy. And just a lack of self-awareness. And it hurt.
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for unpacking that more. I hear a certain speculative nature to it. Just maybe somebody their own curiosity more than attention to you or certainly attention to the wider group setting as being particularly wounding.
- Wade Brown
Yeah. Especially, you know, 60 ish days afterwards. And just just shouldn't have done it.
- Wade Brown
There is there's an expression that Cynthia and I use and it's I deemed it fresh eyes. And what I mean by that is when you encounter somebody who doesn't know their eyes. And so there's a there's a a paradigm shift that happens once you share that that's, you know, that that that's happened in your life, that you've got a child. It's. That's especially teenager has committed suicide. 14 year old. There's a paradigm shift that happens in that moment. And you can see there the expression in their eyes change. And so I. I look for that. And when I see it, I try. What I've learned is because I don't think in. Nobody has poor intentions. They just don't know how to react because it's they're hit with that moment of suddenness as well. It's a sad story.
- Wade Brown
It's shocking. And so I try to, you know, immediately provide some reassurance, you know, that it's OK. It's OK to talk about it. Just to to help. You know, help settle them down, because it can be very. It can be very unsettling. Right?
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah, it will. And I. I hear in that it's it is a particular it is a particular burden. That can happen in its own way, because if you're a perceptive person, you know that it throws the listener. And then especially in those early days, it can be its own burden of having to shepherd their response, like, oh, now I've got to like, strangely kind of care for you and let you know that I am okay enough, then it's OK here. And it's it's particular nuanced. What can often happen in social dynamics.
- Wade Brown
Well, it is. And it kind of goes back to your your question before about like so what's what's not being good or being uncomfortable. Well that's, that's, that's into this part of the equation because you beat it.
- Wade Brown
So I of course, I always feel compelled to reassure them that, you know, it's OK to talk about what we're doing, OK? And if they if they give some offer of condolences or say they're sorry, then of course, acknowledge that and thank them. Thank them for that. What what can sometimes follow, though, is it it's not quite as as biting as you know, was Joshua bipolar. But then there's this assumption. That because we've experienced this, that now I have this definitive tie to mental health.
- Wade Brown
I'm not sure that I do or I don't.
- Wade Brown
And so because I've been asked to speak specifically about mental health in my research. And so my response is, well, I'm not sure you like what. And under what context and what what would you like me to talk about? Because I am not a therapist. I'm not a psychologist. I'm not here to diagnose anybody. I'm just a witness for something that happened in my life that I think provides just innumerable teachable moments.
- Wade Brown
And I love my son in the best way that I can honor my son and carry him forward is to share the story in such a way that it helps others. It's not that it's not to get pity. It's not to get sympathy. It's because if you hear my story and then you have a conversation with a teenager that helped you avoid what I've gone through, then that's a victory.
- Liesel Mertes
If you were speaking to a listener who is walking with someone who has recently had a child commit suicide, what particular words would you offer them as to how to come alongside that person?
- Wade Brown
Well. That's a tough one we saw and I've actually. You know, fortunately, unfortunately, I've had those experiences, teenage suicide is is not a one off event.
- Wade Brown
Yeah, it's. It's you said it's a it's a terrible travesty within within our world today and in in our culture and not unique to the U.S. But certainly that's what we feel here. And I I get to have these conversations. And so, you know, I, I try to. Hit and it's. I've had it with a couple of people that I work with, actually. And then, of course, you know, there's been some community touches there, but it's really it's it's.
- Wade Brown
I wouldn't expect anybody to try to, you know, really fully understand or or try to heal me. It's really just to be supportive and to listen and and that it's OK to talk about and that, you know, there's nothing. There's there's a suicide, you know, just has this this, you know, this nasty kind of. Or about it that it's that it's not supposed to be talked about, that it's it's a private thing. I'm struggling for the right word.
- Wade Brown
It's like a.. What would you call. It's like the. It's like it's taboo or anything. Yeah. Like you're not supposed to talk about it, it's like this secret thing and it it only happens in the most tragic of situations and. And how did you not know what happened? Oh, it was going to happen. Did you see signs? I mean, I ask myself that every single day of my life and I will the rest my life.
- Wade Brown
But it doesn't have to be that way that it's OK to talk about it and it's OK to hold someone's hand and let them cry and to empathize with them and where they are and be there to support them.
- Wade Brown
Yeah, I guess I want to answer more specifically for so I guess maybe I'm just struggling to come up.
- Liesel Mertes
That's a good answer. I appreciate those insights.
- Wade Brown
It's hard. I mean, it real, it's it's one of the it's I had a quote, a colleague that passed away last week from a long, long battle with pancreatic cancer. And I've known I knew Jeff for. Going back to my first time at GE., so more than 20 years and the guy guy's a warrior. But. In an ad in that not that this doesn't make it. I'm not trying to minimize it at all.
- Wade Brown
But that's not what I'm doing. But it was. Gonna happen soon. Is it like that? It's that, right? It's just the suddenness of it. It's so different. It's even something I've talked about this like even if if you know someone who's lost a loved one in a car crash, it again, the suddenness. But it was an accident. It was a it's just it's just different. So I try to just. There's a.
- Wade Brown
There's just a notion around suicide or or knowing someone that took their own life. I feel it's it's just it just need to be there. There's there was another notion that I wanted to share to. And if I can't, maybe. Now does it. Yeah.
- Wade Brown
It kind of goes back to the things that I've learned and what's kind of the on the good side of the ledger and the difficult side of the ledger. But what I've recognized is it's not really it's not really a difficulty.
- Wade Brown
It's just a recognition that people are different. And their response and their approach to me is going to be different depending on who they are. And Liz, share this with me at Riley. And it's, there are sprinter's and there's marathoners. The sprinters are going to be there in moments and they're gonna love you and they're going to support you and they're going to embrace you and they will do anything for you. But then they move on. Right. But they'll come back.
- Wade Brown
It's not that they're disingenuous. It's just their approach is, hey, I got you. I've got you right now. I'm talking to you right now. And I take care of you right now. But then the next day they're off. Then they're right. The marathoners like Tina, my my admin partner, she's a marathoner. She's with me every single day. Same level of intensity. And neither one is right or wrong. They're just different.
- Wade Brown
And so I've offered that as well as I've had conversations where someone someone's at a loss in their family, especially with suicide, is that there's going to be people around you that are going to be there for you in the moment. But then they move on and then there's going to be people who are just going to be checking on you every single day. And neither one is right or wrong. They're just they're just different. So don't I would because what happened with me, the sprinter's, so to speak, to people who would check in, I like, wow, was that genuine or not?
- Wade Brown
Right now they don't want to talk about it.
- Wade Brown
They want to talk about work. They want to talk about you want to talk about football. I get what I've got confused by that. But at a more clear with experience that there is a distinct difference there. And neither one is is right or wrong. They're both they're both good, well intentioned. They're just different.
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah. They definitely both hear that and have experienced that and can even think in my own experience as like the person on the giving end, like, oh, I was a sprinter there and I was a marathoner there.
And it's it's a it's a good lens to be able to look through. Yeah.
- Liesel Mertes
You mentioned at the top of our conversation that the verse in Joshua one nine and Be Strong and Courageous was an anchoring sentiment for you.
- Liesel Mertes
Tell me how you are, how that is continuing to influence you here in July of 2020?
- Wade Brown
Well, as I've said and I've written grief Ben's time. It's like it doesn't no time. It doesn't no place. And so we're we're gonna forever be on a grief journey. And so in those moments where you need for me, if I just need a booster shot, it's a go-to. It's my son's name. It's yeah. It's it. It's an incredible verse in and of itself and the depth and the meaning and the context. And so it's a it's a go-to, Liesel.
- Wade Brown
And it's that way for all of my family. I even have it in my phone a little. Auto type I put in JVB, Joshua Thomas Brown and Joshua, one nine with the Rainbow spits out, you know. So I use that. I use that. I use that frequently. And we have it, you know, obviously. Well, you wouldn't know. You haven't been here, but it's visible in our house in a in a multiple a multitude of ways.
- Wade Brown
And yet it's a go to. It's a safe it's a safe place for my family.
- Wade Brown
And in some of the people that I work with as well. Yeah.
- Liesel Mertes
Thank you for sharing that. Is there anything that it feels important to add that I have not asked you that you would like to? Reflect on.
- Wade Brown
Yeah. So I would I would love to. Just ask those that that listen and yourself to make that promise for Joshua. You know what I've. What I've learned and continue to learn. Is, you know, these. Teenage suicide is is real and and but I've also understand that it's difficult to talk about.
- Wade Brown
And so but I also know that it's necessary. And so I would my ask is, you know, for for anyone that is listening in to make sure that you're talking to the kids in your life and it doesn't just have to be your own children. We're, we're parents, we're teachers. we're coaches, we're neighbors, we're parishioners, we're all of these things around kids. And I think in and in today's world with COVID and now with and all of the things that we're seeing, you know, through the news and social media around the country, kids, it's so easy for kids to end up feeling alone and isolated and trying to find happiness in a screen, whether it's their phone or or otherwise.
- Wade Brown
And parents just yet, adults need to make sure that they're engaging with kids. And while it's difficult, it's necessary to talk about suicide and talk about hurting yourself. And so that that would be an ask. I would have. Liesel, is that is that folks make that promise do. And it's not a one and done. It's not. And if you see a rainbow no matter where. No. No matter how you use that as a reminder to have that had that conversation.
- Wade Brown
Make that promise for Joshua. I have I have accumulated very specific examples of those conversations having taken place where interventions occur. And so I just been prevented. Now, it doesn't mean that it's prevented forever. But in that moment, a suicide was was prevented. And it's because of job, because of Joshua's promise and telling kids it's okay to say something. If it's a friend, if it's a neighbor, if it's a classmate and something's wrong. It just takes three words, you know.
- Wade Brown
Dad. Something wrong, Mom? Something wrong? Yeah. Because I would rather lose a friend.
- Wade Brown
In the short term, then to lose a friend forever, and so that would be at least I just
- Wade Brown
I think it's you know, there's so much pressure on kids today. They've been taken out of schools and put at home. They, you know, for the longest time, couldn't even go see their friends, kids coming home from college campuses. It's not just teenagers. I mean, young adults as well, unemployment. And then, of course, all the things that we see in the news with the riots and in protest.
- Wade Brown
It weighs on kids in an extraordinary way. And we just can't be dismissive of it. The fact that sometimes those thoughts come in there and they have to be talked about.
- Liesel Mertes
Right. Thank you. That's a good and important word. I appreciate that.
- Wade Brown
Yeah, for sure.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Wade
- Showing up matters.Go to the funeral, send the text, make the call. Even if you don’t fully know what to do or say, your support matters. And this is a sort of point 1b guidance. When you show up, especially in the aftermath of someone committing suicide, try to be aware of appropriate boundaries on how and what you ask about. Wade spoke to the pain of having someone pry into whether or not Joshua is bipolar. And here is a bit of guidance. Before asking a question, take a moment to interrogate yourself. Are you asking about of your own curiosity or because you are actually trying to support the other person? You might have noticed in this episode that I did not ask about the details of how Joshua committed suicide. This was purposeful. If someone is not offering those details, I choose not to root around for specifics. Knowing the details of death does not have a material impact on how I can come alongside someone. More than anything, it serves my own curiosity and could feel prying and invasive to the person I am in conversation with. Take a moment to pause and reflect on why you are asking the question you are asking as you relate to a parent who has lost a child. And if you blunder your way into a mistake, go back and apologize.
- When it comes to comfort, Wade offered a metaphor that was powerful and nuanced.He talked about how there are marathoners and sprinters in the world of the grieving: there are people that will be able to come alongside you with great intensity and then seem to fade away and there are those that are there for the long-haul. It is with great maturity that Wade talks about how one is not better than the other and that recognizing people’s different capacities allowed him to not just feel confused by those that seemed to be present than then fade away.
- Cultures of support are essential to helping your team thrive.Wade noted several times that everyone has their Joshua: everyone has a pain that they carry into their workplace. Through his loss, Wade began to cultivate a purposeful openness and culture of support in his team at GE…and he attributes this openness to significantly contributing to his team’s ability to weather the challenges of COVID-19.
OUTRO
Resources for talking with your teen about suicide: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psychoanalysis-unplugged/201807/speaking-your-teen-about-suicide
General information on teen suicide: https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/tween-and-teen-health/in-depth/teen-suicide/art-20044308