Mar 15, 2020
- Paul Ashley
Because it dismisses it dismisses who who I am or whoever that person is. You're saying it, too. It dismisses who their whole self is. Yes. Right. Again, the dichotomy of the fact that I have depression, yet I'm a hoot to be at be at a party with or are both true and at the same time. And if you dismiss either part of that, like all, if you're depressed, you can have fun. If you're fine, you can be depressed. Right. You're basically saying I'm not me, and that's offensive.
INTRO
Paul Ashley is a Vice President and Managing Director at First Person Advisors. He has also lived most of his life with depression and, at the time of this podcast recording, has just published an article taking on the stigma associated with depression.
Liesel Mertes
What is the American 24th twenty first century associations and stigma that go with depression and particularly for you as a white male? Yeah. How do you feel it?
- Paul Ashley
Well, I think I've blown through some of that. I think I've realized the stigma that I believed existed. Maybe isn't true. But let's say let's say I didn't yet. So what is the low level stigma? I think that as a man, we're maybe called to be brave and strong.
- Paul Ashley
Maybe it's different than feminine, right? Female.
- Paul Ashley
As a successful business person, what do you have to complain about as a person and business? You can't show people you're weak because weakness will get preyed upon. I think those some mixture of all that is a stigma.
But Paul is more than just his depression. He is married to Amy and the father of five children, including twins. And he has three dogs. And a fish.
- Paul Ashley
Technically the fish's name is Mr. Unicorn Pants. Because it spent some time in Amy's classroom at school and sometimes at home.
But at home I call Mr. Bubbles.
He is also a wine expert, which has a proper French name that I have been struggling to pronounce.
- Liesel Mertes
Tell me a little bit more about. I'm not even going to pronounce this word correctly. I only see it written being at O somewhere.
Yay! Oh, say it again. Some of yeah. Some it s a French word. Just super friendly French words. Tell me more.
- Paul Ashley
Yeah. So that's part of what's helped in my journey is having things that I enjoy in life. And one of them is I I enjoy wine, education and wine knowledge. And officially a few years ago I earned what's through the courts of master sommeliers is my level one designation.
- Paul Ashley
Sharing wine and food like is there a better way to have community, you know, good people, good wine, good food and that wonderful banquet table, by the way. And in that order, people, food and wine like you put those three together. You're going to have a great time.
Paul takes trips down to Haiti with Filter of Hope, to address Water Insecurity. In addition to his international travels, Paul is raising money for Cancer Research this month as a Man of the Year candidate, more on that later.
And as we begin this important conversation, I want to thank our sponsors. FullStack PEO is a full-service benefits firm that provides great services and packages for small companies and entrepreneurs. This month, we are also welcoming Motivosity as a friend and sponsor of the podcast. Motivosity is a peer recognition and employee feedback software that will have your employees more motivated than ever. Finally, we are sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting. Contact Handle with Care for interactive, powerful sessions that equip your people to competently offer care when it matters most.
As I mentioned, Paul also become more vocal about his journey with depression. As we began to talk, Paul memorably described depression like a dog.
- Paul Ashley
It's. It sort of has. You've ever seen the World Health Organization video they put out on depression, though? With the metaphor that it's a black dog. Mm hmm.
- Liesel Mertes
No, tell me more.
- Paul Ashley
Well, so this idea is that this black dog follows you everywhere in life when you have depression.
- Paul Ashley
And sometimes the black dog is this massive creature that stands over. You like foreboding. Other times, it's this little puppy that's in your lap that you can control. And it's he's always with you, right? Well, I sort of feel like it's helped make the black dog be like, yeah.
- Paul Ashley
T-Mobile doesn't cure it. The black dog is never gonna go away. Not cuddly. But yeah. Just survivable. Yeah. Yeah.
Like president that present but not out of control. Right. Not a slobbery, you know, vicious dog.
- Liesel Mertes
Well you said was it your teenage years that you.
- Paul Ashley
Yeah. It started when I was 17 to 17. Yeah.
- Liesel Mertes
Tell me more about that.
- Paul Ashley
So growing up in a in a you know, in a house that was imperfect as most homes are, even the home I have with my wife and it's we we aren't perfect. You are still. Yeah, right.
- Liesel Mertes
You do?
- Paul Ashley
Yes. What a coincidence. Especially the greater number of children you have, the greater chances for imperfection.
You think? Yeah. Because you have more human fallibility mixing together.
[00:01:42.420] - Paul Ashley
You know, I in really quite frankly, family history is is very present on both maternal and paternal side of the family with mental health issues, depression, anxiety, other stuff.
- Paul Ashley
And I, you know, was dealing with teen angst as one deals with and I can I can see it as plain as day. We were I was I was driving somewhere in the evening in my hometown of Columbia, Missouri. And there was an intersection. That's actually not too far from University, Missouri, where this one road comes to a T. And on the other side of that, T is a limestone, you know, cut out from where they blasted to have to have the road built.
- Paul Ashley
Right. And I remember turning onto the one road that tease out there and thinking, I'm just going to gun it and just like hit the wall and make it all go away.
- Paul Ashley
And I realized, whoa, that is that's a suicidal thought, that self-harm like that's not that's not good. That's real bad. I was like, what is causing that?
- Paul Ashley
And I reached. Luckily for me, thank God, my best friend growing up, best man at my wedding.
- Paul Ashley
His father is one of the most world renowned child psychiatrist.
- Paul Ashley
And he his actual specialty is working with children in war and where they've gone through massive events, things like Syria. And remember, in the 90s, Bosnia and Herzegovina and all that they dealt with, he did a ton of work with the U.N. and he's just unbelievably gifted. Well, you know, fearful as a 17 year old who just didn't like didn't know what all this is about. I called I called him and said, I need help. And he said, listen, I normally don't treat people that close to me, but I'll take care of you.
- Paul Ashley
And he did and sort of started me back to stability pretty quickly. Once a cult classic story.
- Liesel Mertes
So a childhood context of, you know, your parents having their own mental health issues. Did you feel like you had? Because it strikes me as particularly self-aware in some ways that you at 17 were able to recognize that thought is damaging, feel like you had agency to reach out to someone. Was that formed? Did you have an awareness with your parents like, oh, they are going through a mental health episode or because I'm struck for some children, like they just internalize that as I deserve what's going on or I'm the cause of that.
- Liesel Mertes
Like what sort of a formation did your perception as a child have allowed you to reach out the way you did?
- Paul Ashley
What a brilliant question, because I don't know that I ever have ever thought about that. You know, it's something I was able to do. And so at the same time, I think what what your question helps me think about and realize is that as imperfect as some of the upbringing was and as as much pain as can get caused in the household, my parents, my dad has passed away. My mom still living. Did a lot, you know.
- Paul Ashley
They gave me enough there was enough love in that house. There's, you know, everybody's doing their best that they probably not only do they give me the genetic disposition to have the problem and some of the triggers that would exist to create it. I'm not blaming them, don't get me wrong. But they also gifted me with the bravery to self-identify and be self-aware at the same time. Isn't that interesting that you both would coexist?
- Liesel Mertes
Did you see some of that bravery for them in your upcoming light at the time?
- Paul Ashley
No. As I now, as an adult, as a as a parent of five kids, I I see it. I see the bravery in hindsight, but not the.
- Paul Ashley
That's certainly not in the moment. Yeah. You know, there's more blame and payment pain and blame than there was. Looking back and saying, you know, bless them for. Yeah. But they were able to do well.
- Liesel Mertes
I mean, that's such an age where you're just beginning to make sense of who you are. Is there an emerging in the washer and what you take from your parents, what you choose to leave behind? Do you remember that as you're beginning to work with this friend's father of just I imagine I could feel really tumultuous, like my parents have given this to me or they've wounded me in this way. Do feel free.
- Paul Ashley
Yeah, I think there's a definite wounding, you know, the wounds, wounds as you have as a child. And, you know, even today it almost 43. I'll be 43. And in April this year, happy. Almost. Thank you for almost having a birthday.
- Paul Ashley
Yes. I think there's still that childhood wound that doesn't fully go away. Not at all. Does it fully go away? Yeah. It's just it's hard. You know, even though I I'm blessed that I've been connected with Cindy Rep. Ragsdale. Yeah. You know, Cindy.
I do. And and her husband. Unbelievable artist Kyle, her husband.
- Liesel Mertes
My husband and I have gone to marital counseling with Cindy. Well, let's just say I have sat in her office.
- Paul Ashley
So this is the Cindy Ragsdale fan club right here.
- Paul Ashley
So Cindy and I have been working together for probably a year and a half now, 18 months, pretty consistently. You know, every three weeks, give or take. And, you know, we're, we're, we're going back and dealing with some of those childhood wounds.
- Paul Ashley
But the big realization I have from all that is that that the things you did as a child to cope, survive and thrive were were the right things and they were effective. It's as you get later in life and continue to work on yourself and become try to become the whole you that you're supposed to become. You begin to realize that those same skills that were really effective as a child becomes super and potentially super ineffective and damaging as an adult. Right.
- Paul Ashley
Right. But there's grace in that. Yeah. Like, that's okay. And you you don't you don't trash the old behavior because it was what you needed at the time. And you just you sort of learned to evolve throughout that process. That's kind of where I'm at right now in terms of that counseling. And, you know, there's bad behaviors that again, sins of the fathers. Right. Like, right. If I don't if I don't do my thing to get healthier, I'm I'm just kicking the can down the genetic stream to my kids and their kids and their kid's kids.
- Liesel Mertes
Well, it's it's a brave and painful journey and not be able to do that work. And like you said, to to work is not to evade, but to sidestep some of this weirdly inside eddies that are all about like, oh, man, I'm so messed up and I've been messed up since I was six. And I started doing, you know, this thing to survive and to be able say, you know what, I'm recognizing that that exactly what you said was what I needed to survive at that time.
- Liesel Mertes
But that doesn't mean that I, as a choosing an aware person, have to keep being hijacked. Right. That pattern.
- Liesel Mertes
Exactly. And breaking. It's not easy because it served you well, right? It's certainly not your neural pathways.
- Paul Ashley
Ray, there's some neural pathways that are pretty solid. Yeah. Based on survival.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
- Paul Ashley
And so it was like I thought of this thing. It was crazy. Help me. That's all I had, which was all I needed at the time. And I think that was what I've taken from that is I've as time has gone on, I've been more willing to be more public about my journey. I think to realizations. Number one, being able to say this is this this journey with depression has existed in my life continuously since I was 17 and now at 43, realizing it's probably never going to be cured.
- Paul Ashley
Air quotes inserted here, right. Like it's not going to go away. It's probably always going to be present. OK, so relax. Except that doesn't mean you're broken. Doesn't mean you're messed up. It just means that's true. Yeah.
- Liesel Mertes
If someone were to say, well, I'll feel sad sometimes. Yeah. How does depression feel or look different? Like what are the undertones? Does depression for you? Come on, quickly. Is it cyclical? How is that looking for someone who would say it hasn't been a part of my story?
- Paul Ashley
Yeah, I mean, sadness exists in this world no matter what your clinical background is, you know? But there are sad things that happen all the time. Life events and and sad, you know, occurrences, I would say. For me, depression is more like the consistent who who I am. And I don't know that it's cyclical. It's it's always present. But it does have general peaks and valleys. And a lot of those peaks and valleys depend on sort of what I'm doing to either take care or not take care of myself.
- Liesel Mertes
Right. So when you're not taking care of yourself, what does that look like and where do you find yourself going?
- Paul Ashley
Problem biggest indicator for me of how I feel when those, you know, sort of the values are more present is our mornings where it feels like it is every fiber in my being to get out of bed, you know, to simply put the feet on the floor and get out of bed and face the day like, I don't even want to go to bed. I just want to close my eyes and never get out of that. Get out of bed.
- Paul Ashley
And there's been some seasons where I have had I don't have suicidal thoughts. Is there nothing like ideation with a start of a plan like I had when I was 17? But I've have had thoughts at times when those valleys are true.
- Paul Ashley
In addition to get out of bed where it is, where I've had some sort of like like man officious was if this life was just over, there would just be this all would be solved. Like the pain would be gone. I'd be fine.
- Liesel Mertes
And how does the day progress from there? Where is that reckoning of like, oh, I only want to get out of bed.
- Paul Ashley
And there's some days we're all cancel meeting or all. And this doesn't happen anytime recently, but I'll cancel a meeting or, you know, get up at the last possible second.
- Paul Ashley
You know, like, can I get 30 more seconds but not facing the world and think the other thing that I see to do is withdraw from mostly with the family, for my wife and my five kids, you know, getting sucked into social media as a escapism. I think that you see a lot of that too little. That's adult a._d._d as well. But the addiction of social media made to be addictive. Right. Like, they literally have designs.
- Liesel Mertes
They're not doing this by mistake. So I think those are probably some indicators that I see. Right.
- Paul Ashley
What's interesting about, you know, my role professionally is I'm in an advisory role and I'm also in a business development role. And so this idea of being onstage and performing those two can sometimes not mix so well. Luckily, I've been able to, you know, particularly the last 10 years, been pretty successful despite this ever present friend that I call depression.
- Paul Ashley
And then in the writing and in in conversation with you and other people, I I phrased it a little differently every time. But I essentially say when I tell people about my journey with depression and oftentimes the reaction I will get, which is not they don't mean harm and it doesn't hurt me, is really. Yeah, you you're depressed or you, you have depression or really this is a journey you've been on. But Paul, you're literally one of the most fun guys to be around in your.
- Paul Ashley
So you're the life of the party and you're engaging. And my response to them is, yes, both are true and literally at the same time, which surges like day. Right.
- Paul Ashley
And that's a that is that dichotomy is really weird. And it's sort of in some ways beautiful and painful.
I’ve been at events that Paul has hosted. He is high-energy, with a warm smile and a quick retort: a talented connector and facilitator. But this sense of being on came with a cost.
- Paul Ashley
I hold it together at work. When those those episodes are seasons are there. And then at home, I'm just darn near worthless.
- Paul Ashley
You know, I I see the damage. I see the damage that is done at home. And Amy and I have a really solid marriage and a great relationship. And it's almost 19 years now. But there are you know, there are seasons and days I can't get back. And I think she's as an adult, she's more aware and gracious. I think it's really it's been really hard at times on the kids.
- Paul Ashley
Yeah. So. So the kid, the kids of, you know, they're they're resilient. Right. So they'll bounce like the seasons that I've where I've done damage by not being present, you know, much like I'm I'm resilient from my childhood. They're gonna eventually be fine. But it it hurts.
- Liesel Mertes
Is there a conversation? Because there is a complex web of modeling, genetics, stress points. That is not something that's easily clinically or relationally passed out. Yeah, but there is an element of, like you said, aspects that run through families that make children predisposed towards certain behaviors and your own journey. How do you find yourself talking and framing life experience around depression or anxiety to your children to equip them in ways that perhaps you were underequipped?
- Paul Ashley
I think that's the next horizon for me and my journey. I think where I've been able to be a little more clearer for what I need a little more clear about sharing. Publicly out in the world where I don't have relations, like I think the next horizon is figuring out how to be public with my kids in a way that's productive for them and for me, but also realizing there are five different humans at four different ages. Right. Right.
- Paul Ashley
And you know what? I know I've hurt them because I'm a human. And that's what we heard our kids, even though we don't want to. And so what can I do to equip them, to help them understand why that is, how these reasons and things have happened?
- Liesel Mertes
Well, I'm struck that as you're living those questions towards their answers. That's his own gift that you give not only to your children to equip them more, but hopefully, you know, it's not just this aspirational like American dream, but to equip our children, to not have to make the same sorts of mistakes in the same kind of way. And then should they have children to equip them to give even more and to be able to pass wisdom down?
- Paul Ashley
Yeah. Yeah. And it's a I mean, they're dealing with things as adolescence that I never had to because they're they have a supercomputer in their pocket. Right. I didn't have that.
- Liesel Mertes
Well, they have so many feedback mechanisms to when we talk about some of the things that can spark whether anxious episodes are depressing. You know, so often it is based off of perceived social cues. And you're so inundated with so many people's thoughts and likes and dislikes of you all the time. It's just a different psychological reckoning.
- Paul Ashley
It's really is. And being a kid isn't easy. Right. Never has been. And I think it's not going to be easier.
- Liesel Mertes
Well, and it's always good to remember, I think as a child, you actually as you encounter the escalation of life stresses, you don't actually know if you're going to survive them or not. Like it's only through surviving the chaos of that first time that you can have any sort of sense of building resiliency. And so the the pitch sometimes of of children's emotion to be like, well, they're not sure if they're going to die from this pain or not, you know, and it's it's survivors slowly like and living through it when you are in the midst of.
- Paul Ashley
A depressive season. That's the word I use. Season, season. What are some of the things that have proven helpful for you not to, like, suddenly snap out of it, but that are helpful?
- Paul Ashley
So I think talking about it is probably the most helpful because that that whole if it's if it's hidden away in its secret, that's where it festers. And, you know, as a person of faith, I think there's a spirituality that there's a kind of spiritual warfare going on there. But if you don't talk about it. You know this. The you know, the devil can steel industry. Right. You know, that's how I would describe it for somebody who's not a spiritual person.
- Paul Ashley
I just think things in secret versus things that are brought out in truth are damaging. Yeah, I mean, the secret is damaging. Truth is his life-giving. So talking about it, whether that's a counselor or a confidant and a friend, whatever.
- Paul Ashley
It just any conversation, most any conversation should be helpful with somebody you trust. Sleep healthy sleep, which I know is kind of ironic when I say I can't get out of bed. But having a healthy sleep pattern has been helpful.
- Paul Ashley
Exercise is, you know, clinically been proven. That is one of the best ways to fight depression, even without medication. You know, the way your body doesn't have to be, you have to be a marathon runner. You know, do.
- Paul Ashley
What does that crazy gym thing called
- Liesel Mertes
CrossFit.
- Paul Ashley
CrossFit, you know, to be a CrossFit expert. Right. You just have to get out and get your heart rate up a little for 20 or 30 minutes every day. And that's the science on that. Is that what it does from an endorphin perspective and sort of a natural defense mechanism to depression?
- Paul Ashley
So a little bit of exercise or lot, if that's your thing. Diet certainly plays. You know, if I if I eat foods that are way too regain, you know, eat too late at night. And, you know, if I if I alcohol's at the presence of I, you know, entertaining and I have too much alcohol. That doesn't help. And then, you know, for me, medication and medication is not for everybody. And it's not exact science either.
- Paul Ashley
It's a search for what works best.
- Paul Ashley
And I think kind of any combination of those have really been helpful.
These are all personal things that Paul does to manage his depression. However, as a benefits specialist, he also has a lot to add about how employers can help their people as they live with depression.
- Paul Ashley
And you know, in the workplace there's all sorts of stuff like, you know, most employers have what's called an EAP
- Liesel Mertes
An Employee Assistance Program.
- Paul Ashley
Those EAPs can be super helpful. Yeah. It's like if you're a leader and you have somebody in your team who you think is struggling, you as the leader call that the EAP and say, here's what's happening. And they they these are professionals. They can help you.
- Liesel Mertes
So for people who don't know EAP are license agreements with clinical providers to be able to have as a resource for your people to call to get help to hook appointments?
- Paul Ashley
All sorts of stuff. Right. Yeah. And they're highly underutilized. Yes, they are. So employers pay for this or it's it's included as a value add in certain products they buy.
Paul also notes how the Canadian system is structured in a way that invites employers to be a part of solutions.
- Paul Ashley
They have an opportunity to to create perks that because they're not paying for while they're paying for it, but because they're not providing basic health care.
- Paul Ashley
The government takes care of that. They then to attract and retain employees have to be thoughtful about what their different perks are. And one of the things the Canadians have done is and the workforce that the employers believe they have a role to play in helping people with mental health and that it's something that's talked about in the workplace. And it's a benefit that is well thought of. And there's different models that employers provide above and beyond what the health care system does.
- Paul Ashley
And so as I go to industry conferences, the Certified Employee Benefits Specialists, which is a designation I have. We do our national symposium or the international symposium every year because our Canadian friends are there. And it's I always stop in and listen to what they're doing on the Canadian track, because what they're talking about in terms of mental health in the workplace is so far ahead of where we are. I mean, they're probably a good 20 years.
- Paul Ashley
It's like awareness, specific support systems, counselors on site, incentives to seeking out care, whether it's the stigma is different.
- Paul Ashley
I mean, there is probably still a stigma not being in it. It's hard to say, but it feels like the stigma is less if nonexistent.
- Paul Ashley
It feels like they invest from an employer perspective in programs, telephonic support apps, you know, various different modules and modes to support people, investment of time and dollars and just a cultural difference as seen as a lot more of a buy in.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
- Liesel Mertes
When you're in a depressive season, what are things that people either purposefully or inadvertently say or do like is not helpful?
- Paul Ashley
I think I used to be bugged by the the thing of, well, you can't be depressed. You're super happy. Right, like that. That can be hurtful. How?
- Liesel Mertes
Tell me more about that. What level does that hit for you?
- Paul Ashley
Because it dismisses it dismisses who who I am or whoever that person is. You're saying it, too. It dismisses who their whole self is. Yes. Right. Again, the dichotomy of the fact that I have depression, yet I'm a hoot to be at be at a party with or are both true and at the same time. And if you dismiss either part of that, like all, if you're depressed, you can have fun.
- Paul Ashley
If you're fine, you can be depressed. Right. You're basically saying I'm not me, and that's offensive.
- Liesel Mertes
What does it feel? Also, I can imagine I could feel like you're invalidating what I'm saying. Yeah. And that what I'm saying could be true. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- Paul Ashley
But. There's no way you're depressed. You're too much fun to be around. Really? You really want to see that?
- Paul Ashley
You really come on over it. Yeah. Come on. Come on over all. You live in me for a while and you'll get me a real back.
But that's over. I'll show you. I'll show you. Depressed. So that can be hurtful.
- Paul Ashley
And, you know, ninety nine point nine percent the time people are not trying to trying to be hurtful. I think the other one this just popped in my mind.
- Liesel Mertes
Bless these people.
- Paul Ashley
So the other one is in Communities of Faith Church and my you know, Christian Church.
- Paul Ashley
I've had people say, well, you know, you just pray harder and have a little more faith. God will take away your depression.
- Paul Ashley
Do you not think that I haven't already brought this to God and said, if you know, if you 're willing take this away, make this not be part of who I am. Do you not think I haven't tried that? Yeah. Do you not think that hasn't been part of my faith journey? Right. That hurts a lot.
- Paul Ashley
Like that is unbelievably right. Because that's not you know, that that's just it's just not it's just not true. I mean, that's just not how God works.
- Liesel Mertes
I think you touched on this, but I don't know if you say it differently. If you could give a greater awareness to people who have not experienced depression. What would you want them to know? What would you feel is really important?
- Paul Ashley
That people who are suffering from depression all don't look the same. And. It can be as debilitating as any other chronic illness that you've ever heard of, like diabetes or cancer or things of that nature and that, but it is because it has been stigmatized and it's harder to see.
- Paul Ashley
That you sometimes don't even know who's walking around with it. Yeah. And that's just another proof point that we need to just be a little nicer to each other, right? Because you don't know what somebody's carrying around with them.
- Paul Ashley
I thought about that thought about any disease, just that, you know, everything you everything you need to know, like you learned in kindergarten. Yeah. Right. It's just be nice.
- Paul Ashley
Try to be what good does it quantify a little bit and then come back and then come back and try again.
- Liesel Mertes
I'm struck with in your story, as I said, you had a noteworthy ability early on to be seeking community. As a 17 year old, to be not just internalizing it and keeping it private. If someone is listening and they say I know someone who man, they're definitely depressed, but they're, they're not doing some of those things like they're not they're not exercising, making healthy choices. They're not utilizing a counselor. They're depressed. And it's very much something that's tightly held for them.
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah, for support people. They can often feel at their wits end of wanting to make a difference, but being unable to. What would you say for those people that are listening and they say, I don't know how to help someone like that?
- Paul Ashley
Well, they're not an actual clinician. Don't try to be one because you can do more damage than good.
- Paul Ashley
And sometimes pursuing them and asking them to do things, you know, that they historically have found to be fond or enjoyable and asking them to do them with you, even if they reject you multiple times, continue to ask, because sometimes all you really need to do when you're in those depressive seasons is simply get out and start living. Go for what if if going for a walk was your thing. And bottom for a walk if you are going to see a movie is their thing environment.
- Paul Ashley
But you may have to ask again and again and again and again. Right. And that's something that anybody can do, is join them in something, you know, they enjoy and get them. Just get them moving. Get them living. Be willing to be persistent. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
- Paul Ashley
And sometimes if somebody is really suffering, sometimes it's just simply out your relationship simply go into their house and just being present. Mm hmm. Yeah.
- Paul Ashley
Just physically present and not. I've never been in that stage where I've that's I've never gotten that bad. But I can see why that would be a spot where if somebody that truly cared about you just showed up and just sat there and didn't necessarily want you to talk, you just weren't alone and you knew somebody cared. Right.
- Paul Ashley
That can go a long way. And that can be its own practice of self-discipline and restraint for the person who arrives for the caregiver.
- Paul Ashley
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Do not say all the things that are perhaps at the tip of their tongue. Be that advice or you just need to hear this or.
- Paul Ashley
Yeah. I don't know that they need to just show up and be silent the whole time. But if the person doesn't wanna engage and talk, I mean you ask a few open to the questions. Right. How are you today. Would you want to do it? Still try to engage them. But if if all you get is silence just being followed, you'd be amazed at how much presence can you help
We are going to move, in a moment, to the three key take-aways from this episode. But I want to remind you that Paul is currently engaged in a great advocacy campaign to raise money and awareness from now until May 9 of 2020 for the leukemia, lymphoma society man and woman of the year.
- Paul Ashley
I t's about raising money for L.A. less. And L.A. Less is an amazing organization that does work in research, huge research, patient advocacy and resource connection for families.
Paul is inspired by the cause and by Finn Stallings, who was diagnosed with leukemia at the age of five and, three and a half years later, Finn just rang the bell to signal that his treatments were over. I’ve donated to support Paul and Finn and this meaningful research and I am including a link in the show notes so you can too.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Paul
- If someone confides in you about their depression, listen and resist the urge to say something that minimizes their disclosure. Paul was especially triggered by statements like “But you are always so happy!” Which leads to my second point
- Depression can take all different forms.A person that is often “on” in their job function can be absolutely exhausted at home. Widening our perception of what depression looks like (and how debilitating it can be) will go a long way to breaking down the stigmas that promote a culture of silence.
- If you know someone that is struggling with depression, regularly checking in with them can be really important.Remember, as you make contact with them, they might not respond initially, you might need to continue checking in. As Paul said, coming alongside them and doing something that they have enjoyed in the past or just showing up to be with them, even if that means not talking for awhile, can powerfully show support.
As we close, I want to thank our sponsors. FullStack PEO is the premier benefits provider for small businesses and entrepreneurs. They give you great options, their staff is top-notch. Let FullStack handle your benefits so you can get back to work. We are also welcoming Motivosity as a sponsor. Motivosity is a software solution that creates motivated employees and helps to spread fun and gratitude. Finally, we are sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting. Through interactive workshops and keynotes, we help you offer support when it matters most.
OUTRO
https://pages.lls.org/mwoy/in/indy20/pashley - Man of the Year Campaign
https://firstpersonadvisors.com/paul-ashley/ - FirstPerson/Paul Ashley bio page
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCrniLQGYc – WHO Black Dog video
https://www.bizvoicemagazine.com/interactive/2020/03/index.html#p=16 – Reducing the Stigma, BizVoice Magazine Article