Feb 9, 2020
– Karen Ng
Do we mention suicide? Do we use that word? And there was a lot of reluctance. My mom's gut reaction was no. How could we tell people that she took her own life? You know how. How shameful. You know, what would people think? And it would it would. It has implications for the family that somehow it was their fault because she killed herself. And why would she do that? She comes from a good family. She had more than most people in this world and must have something to do with her family.
INTRO
Suicide is complicated and tragic. It is intensely personal, specific to an individual. How suicide is experienced and interpreted also differs between communities and cultures. Today, we are going to talk to Karen. Karen is Chinese American. Since her sister, Karine, committed suicide two years ago, Karen has been on her own journey with grief and loss…and she feels a particular passion to speak to the stigma around mental health among Chinese Americans. I learned so much in this episode and I am confident you will also.
This episode is on the air thanks to the sponsorship of FullStack PEO. FullStack helps emerging companies manage their payroll and benefits. Working with FullStack gives you peace of mind that your people are being taken care of as you grow your company. We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting. Disruption catches managers off guard, unsure of what to do or say to help their people. Handle with Care Consulting delivers interactive workshops that empower your people to give support when it matters most.
Karen lives in Los Angeles. She is a recreational runner, an activity that she took up during her divorce proceedings as a sort of therapy. She also lives with lupus, an auto-immune disease.
- Liesel Mertes
Now, you're a person that has been involved in a couple of causes that are close to your heart. Tell us a little bit about some of the charitable work that you've been involved in.
- Karen Ng
I started a program, a nationwide program for Lupus Support and education in New York back in 2000 and 2002. It's the first of it was the first of its kind. And it addressed the need for support and education to patients and their families of Asian-American descent who lack the kind of knowledge about how to live with a disease, a chronic disease.
Before moving to LA, she was working for the non-profit sector in New York where she worked with the Coalition of Asian American Children and Families as well as Apex, which provides mentoring for underserved youth. This led to a public Health Degree and the launch of Cartwheel Initiative, which brought artists to Sri Lanka. She also launched the Orphans Future Alliance, which funds orphanages in Vietnam.
- Liesel Mertes
So one of the things that you wanted to discuss on the podcast was talking about your family and specifically your sister. Could you tell us a little bit more about your family, about their ethnic background, where you fit in the birth order set that?
- Karen Ng
Yes, we are a Chinese-American family. My parents came over from Hong Kong when they were younger. And I am one of three sisters. I'm the oldest. And then there's Klara and then there's Karinee. So there's Karen, Klara and Karine. We all start with the letter K, so. You can kind of see how we were made fun of when we have the three Ks.
- Liesel Mertes
Yes. And were you shaped powerfully by being the oldest sister, I'm the oldest of four. And I feel like I. I feel like the oldest almost all the time.
- Karen Ng
Definitely. I mean, in Chinese culture, the oldest is, is called judges and judges. Oh. Is always known to kind of take care of her siblings, right? I mean, I needed to be an example for my, my younger sister,
Karine was the youngest sister. And Karen tells how all of the sisters were different, choosing different instruments to study and languages to learn. And Karine had a particular flair.
- Karen Ng
So she was the kind of creative artist of the family. She was just talented in so many ways. She went to New York City to pursue a career in fashion. She graduated from Parsons School of Design. She loved animals. She was the kind of saved they ran, attains a la moon, bear save the planet kind of girl. And she was a devoted mom to her. Her shiatzu was named Chewy, and she even created and launched her own business. Inspired by Chewy, it was called Central Park Pups, and it was a pet clothing company with a patent to design. She called the hit harness, so she was so full of energy. She loved themed events. She would go to the Renaissance Fair every year, get a group of people to go and dress in costume. She or Halloween was her favorite holiday. She loved parties and costumes and events to kind of show off her creative genius.
- Karen Ng
She was a bargain hunter fashionista. She was incredibly resourceful. She could design centerpieces and create special effects for any occasion. She was feisty, gregarious, silly and clever. So, she was just a ball of energy.
The sisters lived in New York together for a while, their lives overlapping quite a bit.
- Karen Ng
Family is the most important. Like you can you always you know, you can depend on your family. Family is the most important. So we always grew up with that kind of mentality.
– Liesel Mertes
You know, for your younger sister, when did you become aware of any mental health issues that she had?
- Karen Ng
So the two years or so before she died, we knew that she was troubled and depressed, she had she had been going through a lot. She had a sudden divorce. And that's why she moved to Las Vegas to start, start fresh, start anew. And she was going through a lot. Relationship wise with an abusive boyfriend. And professionally starting a new business venture with the same person. So, things were complicated and things weren't going well for her. She grew increasingly distant by not responding to texts or emails as often. Whereas before she would, just she's constantly on a phone. She's always texting. So that was different. And she had extreme mood swings. She'd lash out to suddenly the family members in public, like yelling at my mom or insulting me. And she was increasingly hostile. So, we knew that she was struggling. She would call me in tears and tell me how upset she was. I'd listen to her vent. I sent her encouragement cards and books.
- Karen Ng
And we, we knew she needed help. So she, she agreed to see a therapist, but she refused, absolutely refused to take any medications. So, and this was partly, partly because my mom was very strongly against any medications for mental health conditions. And I think it relates to the misconceptions around mental health. And she was highly vocal against it. She thought it changed the person and it was highly detrimental. So she was very adamant. You do not take any medications. And so Karine was influenced and also felt the same way.
- Liesel Mertes
How is that for you in support role? Did you feel like that was a good conclusion? Tell me more about it.
- Karen Ng
Because if she if she would if there was something that could help her. Both my sister Klara and I knew that she might need medications to help control her, her and her mood swings. Her. Her. What was happening to her. And we were very, we found we couldn't we couldn't convince either my mom or Karine to consider that possibility.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
- Karen Ng
There are three kind of brief scenes that flashed through my mind when I think about, you know, the moment or the time when I found out what happened. And these scenes get in my mind there. They're hazy on the details, but try to kind of describe the three dreams.
- Karen Ng
So that day, I was on the treadmill at the gym in the middle of the day. And I you know, I normally don't interrupt my workout when I get a phone call. But I thought it was my, I saw was my mom. So I'd started pick up and she asked me if I had been able to reach Karine because she was really worried. I hadn't. But I promised her that I'd leave the gym and work on finding her. So I called my other sister, Klara, and we tried texting and calling her, but there was no response.
- Karen Ng
So then the next scene in my mind is me walking back home from the gym. And I get a call from my sister Klara, who said Karine had attempted suicide. Her ex-boyfriend had found her and he had called the ambulance and they were taking her to the hospital.
- Karen Ng
So immediately obvious, it was obvious that my sister and I would have to go to Vegas to see her see her in the hospital. We knew it was a serious situation, but we didn't know how serious. And I even joked that I'd, I'd punish her when I went to see her.
- Karen Ng
And then the third scene. The last scene is when I'm at home and I'm taking a shower and I'm anxious and annoyed that I have to suddenly drive to Vegas from L.A., and I get another call. And I pick up even with the shower running and Klara tells me that Karine didn't make it. And I'm like, what do you mean she didn't make it? You know, we're going to the hospital to see her now. You know, that doesn't make sense. So I did not believe her. I did not accept it. I know. I must've hung up and I was screaming in the shower. This isn't happening. I kept repeating it. This isn't happening. This isn't happening. I was yelling at the top of my lungs. I didn't care, you know, who was the apartments kind of small. So, you can kind of hear through the walls. But I was dreaming water spraying all over and I kept screaming the same three words as I was throwing things into my bag.
- Karen Ng
And I said, this isn't happening. This is not happening. And as if, you know, my words could transform the reality into a dream. Because I didn't think this was happening. So what was the immediate recollection of what happened.
- Liesel Mertes
I'm so sorry. That's. This is horrible news to receive. You know about your sister. And as, as much as there are those, those three scenes of the immediate. Then there's all of the logistics and communicating with family.
- Liesel Mertes
Did your mom, with her particular feelings about medication or about mental health? Was there a particular way in which she received the news of her daughter's suicide? Because it sounds like maybe there, there was some reticence or shame issues around mental health that I imagine someone's death could only magnify those in some ways that the.
- Karen Ng
At first, they didn't really think of it as a mental health or issue. They thought of it as a problem. It's like a puzzle that needed to be solved. Something happened that caused her to do what she did. So, they kept replaying the details of finding out what happened that day, in the days before about what argument she got into with, you know, the ex-boyfriend didn't.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
- Karen Ng
I think what is a little more relevant is the way she decided to take her own life. She actually had thought it through. And it wasn't a spur of the moment decision. She. I had learned how to connect the tailpipe or the, the way you connect to the car so that, you know, you know, you have carbon monoxide poisoning in the car. So. She had figured out a way to do it, had planned to park the car outside of a different, different house where there was no. No video, security cameras and so there were elements, there were things that suggested she had planned to do this. Even though the kind of haphazard, less like note that she scribbled off on pieces, the scratch paper, her last goodbyes were, were very brief and in wouldn't I wouldn't even call it a suicide note.
– Liesel Mertes
I mean, I'm imagining you are a grieving sister. You're also the, the oldest daughter in your sibling. You know, order. And as you alluded to, the certain expectations with being the oldest, you are also the daughter to grieving parents. What kinds of things were you finding were being asked of you emotionally in that immediate aftermath? What sort of roles were you playing?
- Karen Ng
When you ask that, first thing I think of is, it is being asked, well, why didn't you know? You know, how could you not know? You're the older sister. So didn't she? Didn't she tell you it was wrong? So, of course that wasn't very helpful because that me meant I failed her. And I wasn't there to. Your help her. Through her troubles. That's a hard question they have to carry. It was it wasn't a question those directly asked by people. It was more I mean, mostly my mom. Right, so I don't think, I don't think people would be that insensitive to imply you.
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah, well, that brings us to something that we've discussed of the particularities of suicide within the Asian-American community. What, what were you feeling that your broader community was communicating to you, to your parents about what it meant to walk through suicide as a family?
- Karen Ng
So immediately after this happened, we had to decide whether or not to disclose, you know, cause of death. In writing her obituary and kind of sharing the news, do we mention suicide? Do we use that word? And there was a lot of reluctance. My mom's gut reaction was no. How could we tell people that she took her own life? You know how. How shameful. You know, what would people think? And it would it would. It has implications for the family that somehow it was their fault because she killed herself. And why would she do that? She comes from a good family. She had more than most people in this world and must have something to do with her family. So, it took a lot of convincing to persuade my mom that being truthful about the situation was the way we needed to go. We had to face the truth and not hide.
- Karen Ng
And I was so proud of my dad when he stood up at the memorial service in front of the entire crowd of family and friends and, and said that Karine died by suicide. And confronting it in your head on. You know, I I did not expect that. And suicide is just not talked about.
- Liesel Mertes
I imagine that could feel profoundly lonely.
- Karen Ng
And seeing a therapist, like I said, is is a sign of weakness. And there's a lack of, there there's a lack of actual culturally competent mental health services. So, when I was looking for a therapist, I really wanted someone who understood my background, you know. There's so many cultural nuances, language wise and behavior wise, that it would just take too much time to explain to a non-Asian therapists. You know, they just wouldn't get it. So, you know, it was it took me it I tried to find a, an Asian therapist, and it wasn't it wasn't that easy.
- Liesel Mertes
How about within your your friends and family? Did you feel like they had language or meaningful gestures to come alongside you in a way that mattered? Like, what were they doing? Were they bringing food or they send a note?
- Karen Ng
So one of the most helpful things that someone did for us in the aftermath was do a meal delivery service. I think that was a complete lifesaver. She set up a meal train where people could contribute to help pay for a meal delivery service. So every, every night or every, you know, all our dinners were, were, you know, already set up for us and not having to decide and prepare what to eat every day was so helpful. Because, you know, you have no appetite and we just eat what was put in front of us. And that was important because we needed to eat.
- Liesel Mertes
Any other things that people did that felt important?
- Karen Ng
Yes. Another helpful thing was somebody was a kind of like a point person to serve as the information deliver, you know, via Facebook. He, he shared the details of the memorial and other other, other helpful things, so that took the burden off of us.
- Karen Ng
So it gave us our space to, to mourn and concentrate only on the relevant details of what we needed to do for the service and not to interact with, you know, so many other concerned people.
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah, in the midst of that, was there anything that people said or did that even if they weren't meaning, it felt really hurtful?
- Karen Ng
Well, everyone everything that was said was met well-meaning, but may not have been received that way, for example. When there's a couple phrases that really, really irked me. One was she's in a better place and no, she's not. She's dead. I just kept think issues in no place. And I don't want her there. I want her here. So that was not helpful. Yeah. And then the other one was. Everything happens for a reason. No, there's absolutely no reason why my sister is dead. Yeah.
- Liesel Mertes
What are some of the things for someone who has not had a relative commit suicide that make that first year particularly hard?
- Karen Ng
It's hard to even just open up the conversation about suicide. It's hard to, I have to explain what happened or will have to decide how much to share and, and in meeting new people who, who didn't know are it's also. How do you share? You know, when people ask about your family, you know, how many siblings do you have? Well, what do you say? So that was that does the hardest part in the first year. I, I struggled with whether to say, oh, I have well, I have one sister or I have two sisters. And now I, you know, I have come to the point where, I mean, I'm proud to say that I had I had two sisters, I have two sisters because I've always had two sisters my entire life. You know, I can't negate the fact that she's, she's been a part of my life for 38 years. So, I have two sisters. One of them is no longer here.
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah, if what you say is one of the most common misconceptions that people have about suicide, if you you could say of only people like grasped this part of what it is to have someone commit suicide.
- Karen Ng
That only people with severe mental illnesses die by suicide. Because Karine was a highly functioning, accomplished businesswoman who was a property manager, she was a property manager, a businesswoman, house fixer, upper, she. She was, you know, very productive, socially functioning adult. And she was not diagnosed with any mental illness. So, that's not a requirement. Yeah. And I know that.
- Liesel Mertes
Speaking about suicide, particularly as it relates to the Asian-American community, is important to you. What would you say? And you've talked a little bit around this, but what are some of the particularly harmful assumptions within the Asian-American community about suicide? And this is, this is a.. Is it actually. When I say Asian-American, is that like too broad, too? Is it meaningful to you to talk about Chinese American? Like I'm suddenly struck that that might be the equivalent of saying to someone who's black, like, tell me about an African perspective. And then like, I'm Ghanaian, I'm not African. So, I submit that to you. Is that like an appropriate term to talk about Asian-American or?
- Karen Ng
I think that it's distinct. There's a is a big distinction between Asian and Asian-American. So, yes, better to say Asian-American because ah, our experiences and, and our culture is different from being saying Asian. But you're right that it is kind of generalizing all the different ethnicity.
- Liesel Mertes
Forgive me for that. I would like to speak more accurately.
- Karen Ng
I mean, I. I can always speak to my Chinese. Yeah. Experience. But. Let me ask you that.
- Liesel Mertes
Thank you. Thank you for your graciousness in that. As I said, I am on my own learning curve about caring well, about different nuances within that. So, thank you for your kindness and even answering about Asian-Americans. Let me ask you, what are the particular challenges within a Chinese-American community of around suicide if you think like this is a really harmful assumption that this community has?
- Karen Ng
Well, I think even the word in Chinese for what mental illness is? The word is some *Chinese word*. Even that has negative implications because if you break it down, some *Chinese word* means crazy and illnesses and *Chinese word* is illness. So it's some *Chinese word*, crazy illness and some *Chinese word*. *Chinese word* means mental hospital. So it's like crazy hospital. It's like the loony bin. The, the you know, the place where a mentally deranged people go. So, it's so stigmatizing. That it prevents people, you know, from seeking help or anything to anything to do with mental illness. Kind of. In general is this no shrinking back response or. Oh, no. It's recoiling when even hearing the word no. So that that is very harmful.
- Liesel Mertes
What word of insight would you give to someone who is perhaps listening and they have just recently lost someone? Specifically, if they're from a Chinese American community.
- Karen Ng
Well, I would encourage them to find and speak to someone who's had the same experience or going through the same thing to. To know that they're not alone. They don't have to be going through this alone, that there are other people that this happens to other people. And defined the, you know, to find that community that. That is going to help their healing. It doesn't have to be in the Chinese community.
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah. And if someone is listening and they and they think, oh, I have, you know, I've got a coworker or a friend or a family member and they're going through something similar. And I, I want to be a good friend. What should I do? I feel really awkward and I don't know what to do. What words of insight would you offer to them?
- Karen Ng
Insight would. Inside would probably be that. A person's sense of time is going to be completely warped and they're going to be very just completely distracted. So, expect them to be unfocused. And if in the workplace of view, if you're only given some straightforward directions or one project at a time. That's, that's preferable because, you know, probably just concentrating on existing. And, maybe you'd be aware be. Be sensitive to, to what you're saying. In just in a general context, because I remember being hypersensitive to certain conversations, you know, just overhearing people, you know, talking about their their, their weekends about, you know, going out and partying and getting wasted and, and doing all these, you know. People's activities are just it just completely tick me off. Yeah, we start to hear things in a different light. So.
- Karen Ng
So just to be sensitive. How to maybe how to help someone who's going through the same thing it would have been would have been helpful for me to know what kind of resources are out there. If someone had actually done the research and looked at local support groups or events or, or therapists, it would have made it easier for me to find that support earlier.
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah. Yeah. This great point that it's, it's such additional work in the midst of grieving to have to go through the logistics and do the research on. Are there are other things that you would like to add about your story or about holding it within your community that you feel you didn't get to give voice to?
- Karen Ng
The idea. I need to convey is positive mental health is critical to physical health. And I've learned that. Clearly with my lupus, because one of the triggers of lupus is stress, so we're constantly encouraged to minimize stress because it can cause inflammation.
- Karen Ng
And so, the mind body connection is so powerful and, and with and also with lupus, lupus, it can be invisible. So, meaning you can look fine with the help of a little makeup maybe. And there can be but there can be inflammation in your body. So, with grief as well, you can look fine and go about doing your business, but there can be great pain happening inside.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
Here are three key take-aways after my conversation with Karen…
- Our community helps to shape our reality.Karen talked about the particular challenges within a Chinese-American community: the reluctance to seek help for depression or mental illness, the pressure to be strong. What kind of a culture are you a part of when it comes to grief and loss? Is it an open one that allows space for those that struggle? Or is it one that forces people to bury their struggles? How can you be part of co-creating a more life-affirming culture?
- In the aftermath of a suicide, loved ones can be unfocused and adrift.Karen talked about the importance of getting very straightforward directions, taking one project at a time. For managers or coworkers, be aware of this element of distraction and adjust your workflow accordingly. Perhaps this means streamlining tasks and having more regular check-ins in those first few months.
- There is great power and importance to listening to the experience of people that come from a background or context that is different than your own, especially if you are part of a majority culture.You will not immediately resonate with or understand their perspective…in translating cultures or navigating grief, you will most-likely make mistakes along the way. If you make a mistake, like I did in referring to Asian-Americans instead of Chinese Americans, accept correction, apologize, and try to modify your perspective moving forwards.
Thanks again to our sponsor, FullStack PEO, the forward-thinking benefits company that serves emerging companies and to Handle with Care Consulting, training your staff to be Workplace First Responders.
OUTRO