Jul 2, 2019
Miscarriage is all too common and it is difficult to talk about. If care is given, it is usually directed towards a grieving mother. Yet, what about the father? When men are overlooked in the grieving process, what is the cost? How can you give meaningful support to both parents? In part two of the series on miscarriage and infant loss, Matt and Jenny Kistler share their story.
Definitely it's more like as it should be a lot of focus on my wife and my emotions going through those things but I definitely believe that there's not as much attention that's given to the husband and the experience. So you're kind of sitting there like your friends don't know how to relate. Kind of like that once hit everybody. Human nature pretty wants to get back to normal as much as possible. So it's kind of a weird experience
INTRO
Matt and Jenny have four beautiful, vibrant children. On the 2018 Chirstmas card, the sun is shining and everyone is smiling…they are all really photogenic in coordinating outfits. Three girls and a boy. What the picture doesn’t show is the painful journey of miscarriage, infant loss, and interventional surgery that led up to that Kodak moment.
Today is the second in our two part series on miscarriage and infant loss. In this episode, I am particularly glad to feature the voice of Matt alongside his wife, Jenny. As a society, we don’t talk about miscarriage and infant loss very often…and when we do, the conversation is usually focused on the mother, the very real pain and loss that happens in her body and in her emotional world. Yet, miscarriage and infant loss can also have a profound effect on the father, as Matt speaks to in today’s episode.
Matt and Jenny are at a busy stage of life, they have four children under the age of nine: Anna, Molly, Kate, and Hudson. In the summer, you can find Jenny and her crew at the neighborhood pool. Matt and Jenny are high school sweethearts, they were married at the age of 20.
– Jenny Kistler
We were wee babies
- Matt Kistler
We could not legally drink alcohol. No not even at our wedding, it was a dry wedding.
After a few years of marriage, they decided it was time to have children. Jenny conceived, they were delighted, told everyone, only to miscarry a few days later.
- Jenny Kistler
Basically, we got the positive pregnancy tests and a week later it was already over and in our, we were pretty naive you know we were super excited and already lots of people right when we found out. So yeah that was where the scary journey began right at the beginning with our first baby.
Jenny was working at the time and people were super supportive, they sent cards and told her to take as much time as she needed. Matt also remembers a lot of support. They let some time pass, tried again, and Jenny gave birth to Anna. But then there was another, early miscarriage, followed by a pregnancy. This pregnancy would result in a second, healthy baby, but the previous losses caused uncertainty, and anxiety.
- Matt Kistler
I think there's a piece you it's like, well let's get this nine months over with, you know, you try not to let your anxiety build up around when was last time you felt the baby OK OK. Are you sure go have some orange juice. You know it's like all that kind of stuff you go through so I think for me it's just a matter of like you kind of let that stuff go. But it definitely played in the back.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
- Jenny Kistler
Anxiety at first, No not a daily thing. As time went on and it was taking longer and longer. And the first time we got right it didn't take long. And so then the anxiety really set in probably the last three or four months. And I actually almost came to a point where I I realized I needed to think about what if something is wrong. We can't conceive naturally can be ok with that. You know can I have peace with that. And for me, I was actually a big step because anxiety cause I tend to be an anxious person admittedly and that can cause a lot of stress in my body even. And I'm sure that was influencing the situation as that anxiety mounted.
Yet, those anxieties were unfounded as Jenny gave birth to a second healthy baby girl. However, It was difficult for Matt to identify fully with what Jenny was experiencing in these cycles of loss and pregnancy.
- Matt Kistler
I was on my end with the earlier miscarriages as a husband. The only thing that changed was your wife showed you a pregnancy test that said pregnant you know it's nothing you didn't see a baby bump you didn't, Jen gotten sick in the morning. You know all the kind of telltale signs of a pregnancy. So it's kind of a weird journey of the husband and the earlier miscarriages because for you it's like I guess you're pregnant. I mean. Yeah. Let's try this out.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
- Jenny Kistler
And then once you've gone through a miscarriage, you are more, your ears are hurt and you hear about it a lot more and you realize how many women are experiencing this and that it's common and no less sad for being common but it is common.
For being common, Matt and Jenny emphasize that not all miscarriages are the same. They have lived through four miscarriages, these first two were relatively early on and were dramatically different from their third loss, a stillbirth that happened not in those early weeks but in Jenny’s second trimester.
- Jenny Kistler
But there are so and this is this is something I'll mention is that miscarriage as a term is very broad because a miscarriage really early like we had experienced is different in a different situation than having seen a viable baby and then having that baby maybe die in utero in the next ultrasound be gone or like in our situation. What happened was a prematurely dilating cervix. So we had our baby was alive until the point where she wasn't. And I basically I delivered her into my hands.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
- Matt Kistler
I still a don't know how to unpack it. I just don't it just I don't know how you process it. For me I was at work. She called me at work and said hey my water broke here in Chicago where we live in a time and today maybe the hospital and my co-worker was their CFO in that we were talking we had a business meeting. She said I'll drive you to hospital. So she drove me and I pulled in a matter and she goes the restroom and I can hear her cry out from the restroom and that's when I walked in the shoes and they're holding the baby and I think that's the piece I did to Jenny's point like I could like home miscarriages.
- Matt Kistler
So I felt like we held the baby that's in a public restroom. It was like when I was like just the trauma from it was was really crazy and lasting and so was one of those things that's it's really hard. You can't explain that to someone or something or you know that's why
- Jenny Kistler
it's not really you know you wouldn't really clarify that in normal conversation. Oh we miscarry wouldn't it. This is what really happened.
- Liesel Mertes
You know there's a moment a reference to the trauma. There's like all the moments that come out like what we do with this child who I go to if this is just the outplay it's not just a discrete oh and afterwards
- Jenny Kistler
but you're correct that afterwards a whole nother thing you know because. So that our little girl is in my hands you know the placenta and the rest of the pregnancy was all still in my body. And so even though I didn't have to be into labor to get her out they did have to do things.
- Jenny Kistler
And now it's more difficult than just the shock of being pregnant two hours ago. I mean when from the time I held her it was only like 40 and 40 minutes ago I had been healthy pregnant and then
- Matt Kistler
I mean it was one of those things that they came in doing what it's called funeral.
Jenny Kistler
Yeah. We couldn't take her with us.
- Matt Kistler
It's hard for you to find a funeral medic call the funeral home get the reins and it's all those same thoughts. That's that's the piece of the you kind of hit on this second trimester. It's still a miscarriage but it's one of those it's like when you have to go to a funeral home to pick up your daughter I mean it's just it's just kind of a norm. It's that kind of stuff that doesn't leave you
- Liesel Mertes
and that the logistics of death you never picture yourself having to make that call to drive yourself emotionally compromised by slamming guys like these strange, surreal steps of strangeness to all of that.
- Matt Kistler
I think there's a stranger sent around like that was your child but they would have been three you know now it would have been a person with personality no different than the child we have today. And there's a lot of redemption in our story as well. God has been more than faithful to us in the journey.
- Liesel Mertes
Matt you mentioned that you're at work and you see about drag you to the hospital. What was it like to to re-enter the workplace when this pain, man like you gone and what happened you find that there was a strangeness to fielding those questions that you wanted to share? Do you want to. What did that look like for you?
- Matt Kistler
You know I would say that my CEO at the time I'm getting the rundown and this is where exactly you would take as much time as you will. We'll pick up all the slack we'll handle whatever it is. Don't concern yourself with with what's going on at the office. Well we'll take care of it. So he was very generous.
- Matt Kistler
He was very generous to do that and I really did feel like he downplays it so I was probably out for two weeks 10 days, sort of stir-stepped my way back in. But I remember it times as much.
- Liesel Mertes
But how did he know that you were ready to go back?
- Matt Kistler
That's a great question. Honestly I think it's for me just this sense of like getting back to something normal for me in as generous as it is too important to say that. And then we use you would hope. You can't leave your job and they just backfill with people they mean you. You want to be know someone who contributes to the team and you're needed. So we want to get back at it. I've been in sales my entire career so it's pretty easy to know if you're doing well or not so well and if you take a month to five six off to go through whatever it's tough to build that pipeline back up and have those conversations people understand.
- Matt Kistler
But and so I think that piece was was in the back of my mind again like my personality is trying to focus on the positive. And you know it's like your life sucks. That was kind of a thing. But we've got all this stuff and I'm going to focus my attention on the positive. And I'm going to just plug away in that's not I don't mean that I'm like that.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
- Matt Kistler
Yeah. I think I think a lot of guys if not all guys have the ability to compartmentalize a lot of things. So I think it's easy to kind of put that over in the car. I've got to do this today. This is what I do feed the family and so we focus on that. It's kind of I think how I went about it doesn't mean it isn't crushing my time but it's you know I'm able to put that had up and I'm working at right after a little bit and then come home and kind of engaged again and see what they held and those conversations in and that worked through. Again it's it's a lot of how I'm wired is to do that. And so yeah I think it works sometimes it works to my detriment but it's easy it's easy for me to do that not leaning in this stuff. And so it's easy for me to like I always want to get to that next thing that's happy or exciting or the next adventure that I can do and I don't want to wallow in the sadness of grief. And so but there are times in life where it is that is the time to lean into grief that is the time to engage that that to let that play its self out. So when you don't let it do that I think it does come back to bite you a little bit.
Part of this is rooted in Matt’s personality
- Matt Kistler
I mean it's I'm a bad griever I just avoid it. But it's like it's not grief. I'm pretty good at stepping out of it and finding things like find rewarding and fulfilling and find love and refocus my attention on so that's probably been more of the She's encouraged me it's OK to feel over all the things you're feeling it's OK as opposed to the
- Jenny Kistler
especially with our 15 week loss so much different kind of creeps and I did we did have conversations where I encouraged him to let his emotions be felt and talk about it.
- Matt Kistler
Because I think it it's somewhat important to share of the day and kind of with all that stuff a lot of the loss. So it was pretty traumatic in the sense that it wasn't abstract at all.
In the midst of this trauma, Matt and Jenny’s community arrived with support. Matt’s parents drove up to be with them in Chicago.
- Jenny Kistler
Always meals especially when you have a family and you're emotionally distraught having someone else make dinner is just the best help. And after the loss of Caroline you certainly had meals brought to us. We had grandparents helping care for children. We had friends offering to care for children. I know our church small group everybody that was part of the community of our lives was very caring and willing to serve us to do so helpful so my mom helped me have a cleaning lady just things like that so that the normal everyday tasks that are always a lot weren't so burdensome for us simply and enough.
- Jenny Kistler
I also had to have a they thought that everything had come out on the day that it happened but it didn't so I ended up having a DNC a month later. And so then we kind of went through another little pressing until that again. And the emotions with that and even just my body that whole month that my body wasn't really recovering because there was still pregnancy tissue there. So there was that yeah but our community was great.
Yet, in the midst of this outpouring of care, Matt was missed.
- Matt Kistler
Definitely it's more like as it should be a lot of focus on my wife and my emotions going through those things but I definitely believe that there's not as much attention that's given to the husband and the experience. So you're kind of sitting there like your friends don't know how to relate. Kind of like that once hit everybody. Human nature pretty wants to get back to normal as much as possible. So it's kind of a weird experience that we're gonna go through and you're kind of like, ah, guess I'm to figure this out. I guess that's going to be kind of my portion of it.
- Jenny Kistler
So yeah I would say the emotional spiritual counseling kind of care. Maybe it was lacking.
- Matt Kistler
I would say you nonexistent right.
- Liesel Mertes
Maybe this is like an imaginative exercise but as you think back can you imagine like what you would have wanted if there was somebody or even like who you might be to a guy who is walking through a miscarriage right now. What would something healthier have looked like?
- Matt Kistler
You I just think it's as simple as grabbing a cup of coffee or a beer or whatever it just depends on how well you know I mean I know some really well it's going to impact the way that I approach situation but I think just that engaging and just saying, How's your wife doing how the kids are going to sound right. Like how are you doing. Are you impacted like like you held a baby that was a very traumatic issue. What are your thoughts? I mean it takes the right person in the right relationship to do that but I definitely think that there's a there's a place for it there's an appropriate timing for it and just I think that conversation might have been 10 minutes long but that's just enough to like that person to say hey I've been there I know what it's like if you need someone to call is great but just know I like I've been there I see it. I identify with it. We don't go into more detail but you know that's a path to walk down before
- Liesel Mertes
What would you say are some big misconceptions that you feel like people who have not gone through miscarriage have about any aspect of it.
- Matt Kistler
There's a lot of like you didn't hold a nine month old baby that was just born and it doesn't really count. It's almost like now it's like kind of a different type but it's like. It's like you know there's there's still there's still a grief for the parents that are going through it like you do start picturing like we know it was a girl. So you pick names and you talk about where they're going to sleep in the house and you know all those kind of things kind of go through and then when it stops it's just like it's you grieve all that you grieve the loss and everything has been blamed on it. So it's you know I don't know if I use or devalue or wouldn't devalue the experience to the point it's not just me
- Liesel Mertes
Reducing it.
- Matt Kistler
Yeah it's it's I feel like there's a reducing of it.
- Jenny Kistler
That's I agree. That's a good word for it.
- Liesel Mertes
What are some of the worst things that people said
- Jenny Kistler
you know things like there'll be another child that was probably the worst for me
This was especially painful because having more children was NOT a guarantee for Jenny. She acutally needed surgery to repair a surgical problem. She had the surgery, needed time to recover, and still struggled to get pregnant. Then, there were infertility treatments, discomfort, disappointment, and the lingering desire for four children.
- Matt Kistler
it got down to you know emotionally where we were like we cannot do this. We cannot. Every month hope and pray that it didn't happen. It's like well how many of the emotion the stress of that and it's wrecking.
They decided to give it two more months. And, happily, Jenny conceived, only to miscarry again. This was…confusing and hard. They felt emotionally defeated, but decided to again give it two more months.
- Jenny Kistler
mentally we were moving on You were thinking this. So we have our three girls and we're going to end this our family on loss: two of them. And that was the hardest piece to get over. Know it's like any dream you have in your mind and just picturing our family always. And we had to let go of that and say that's not what our family is going to look like,. But it's still wonderful. It's still good. And maybe it's just time for something new. And that is then when we finally conceived our last little one who ended up being a boy.
- Jenny Kistler
But what was really neat about that story was that we found out I was pregnant on that day two years to the day that we lost our baby Caroline at 15 weeks. So there was some serious redemption in that. That was mind blowing.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
- Liesel Mertes
You mentioned some things that people say that were bad. Was there anything really really good that people said
- Jenny Kistler
Saying I'm sorry and that works for everybody and then acknowledges that there is something painful and it gives, whenever someone says that to me that gives me the opportunity to talk if I want to or to just say thank you for it. And I have also I lost a parent. I was 20 and that was my first taste of grief and I can't speak for everybody but I think my experience was that it was better for someone to risk expressing care than to remain silent because grief can be so isolating you know you're feeling all these things you know.
- Jenny Kistler
I say that about miscarriage and then also other forms, they make you feel so alone in it and people that speak to you about it allows me my chance to be alone because it is easy for the feeling of no one remembers. Yeah we do. You do. But
- Matt Kistler
it's easy to really fall I guess everybody else has moved on and they forget that we still carry this piece with us. To this day it is still part of our story and always will be.
- Matt Kistler
I think for me I think the idea of once the dust settles a little bit is that a couple that can come over with their kids and have pizza hang out talk and then just you know how are you doing. And we acknowledge the loss. We can talk about. We don't talk about it but we want you to know that it may you had a loss like it. It's up to you if you want to engage or not. But no we know I think for me to be that can be even just that but I appreciate that. Like maybe today it's just that the pizza and beer on the back patio. Maybe next time we talk about a little bit more but just acknowledging that we we don't wanna be weird about it not We're trying to be respectful and not bring it up because you lost your whoever you know fill in the blank
- Jenny Kistler
we don't want to make you cry.
- Matt Kistler
And so I'm just acknowledging and sometimes saying hey you know that's a bum deal but you're going talk about why you didn't join me. What are you going to do but we see you and we hear you in that.
- Liesel Mertes
If you could speak anything to your younger self to just beginning on this journey and I think you would offer that to somebody who's going through something similar.
- Jenny Kistler
I trust God, you know that everybody believes in God but that that was the Rock for me, That there was a plan that I trust in it wasn't like I had that there was a good God that cared for me so clearly if you are someone of faith, lean into that, but I think with the pregnancy in general.
- Jenny Kistler
Just be sensitive or be sensitive that if you're the kind of person that does just get pregnant easily. Never has any losses. Be aware that there are many that don't have that experience and going into it don't assume that you're going to be the person that doesn't have any losses.
In thinking about his younger self, Matt brought up a practice that is talked about in the Bible: an Ebenezer. In biblical history, an Ebenezer was a pile of stones, a sort of monument, that acted as a physical reminder of things that came before. The idea was that the older generation would bring young people or new-comers to this place of remembrance, this Ebenezer, and tell meaningful stories of important events that had shaped the community. The Ebenezer was an occasion to remember, to reflect.
- Matt Kistler
It's easy to get wrapped up in the day to day, but I think that's why the Ebenezer are used to exist like the place you come back to when you're, like this is what God. Can you tell your kids about it. You tell your generations. This is the pile of rocks who put it up so we wouldn't forget because we always forget. And so I think we need to look at that kind of stuff are they just just know like you know they're there peaks and valleys, just like anything else in life.
- Matt Kistler
But I think when you look back over the course and really contemplate what you've been through and then what God has brought you through you know that's in a job that's in finances that's in miscarriages children fertility. I mean we've seen it in many many different aspects of our marriage in our lives that it is extremely difficult though in the loss. What's this all about.
- Matt Kistler
But it's never perfect that it's never heal me it's a scar there's still a physical mark that you're left with emotional but you think you could see God's loving faithfulness, at least I can say that where I am today
- Jenny Kistler
One thing I did think in answer to one of your questions a while ago I have seen with friends and acquaintances is a tendency amongst women to become bitter when friends and people they know become pregnant if they've had a loss and they're not pregnant again. Yet again having multiple losses and obviously that also can sometimes go along with infertility not always. Sometimes it's just loss and.
- Jenny Kistler
My advice there would be to try to find joy for others no letting that bitterness grow. You have had a loss and you see someone else. It's just focusing inward and away and it just causes destruction on yourself you know, you, it hurts your relationship. I've heard stories of women that just get so bent out of shape because so-and-so shared that they were pregnant. I just thought that was so insensitive to them because they just had a miscarriage in…obviously this is my opinion. But the problem with that is that you are unable to step outside of your own pain and see that this person's Joy really is unrelated to your pain and you all have to find a way to be happy for others when they are given joy
MUSICAL TRANSITION
Here are three thoughts at the close of this second conversation on miscarriage and infant loss.
- Not all miscarriages are the same; there can be a wide variance based on the timing of the loss. Regardless of timing, do not reduce the loss as you talk with a grieving parent. Especially avoid statements that begin with words like, “At least…” These phrases minimize the impact of the loss.
- If you know a couple that has experienced miscarriage or infant loss, have you taken time to reach out to both the mother and the father? Matt talked about being overlooked as care focused on Jenny. Make time to communicate care to a grieving father, to ask him how he is doing and to acknowledge that he shares in this loss.
- Saying “I’m sorry” is a good response to someone who is experiencing loss. As Jenny said, it allowed her to chance to talk if she wanted to or to just acknowledge the sentiment with a thank you. This expression of care also let her know that she was not along in the midst of her pain.
OUTRO