Mar 30, 2021
- Tara VanderWoude
That has been so supportive of me, is just knowing that I'm not in it alone, not alone individually, but then not even alone as as a Korean American, as an Asian-American, but that there are others cross ethnic, cross racial who who care about this and who want to learn, grow and who want to take action when necessary toward toward the this hatred and this anti Asian sentiment of this past year plus.
INTRO
Anti-Asian hate crimes have skyrocketed over the last year. There have been disturbing stories of violent attacks on California street corners, accusation from the highest levels of government, and, last week, a devastating slaughter in Atlanta, Georgia.
How do we talk about the painful experience of Asian Americans living in the United States? Does their story even get told? What does it mean to create space to hear from your Asian friends or coworkers? What are ways that you are subtly discounting their experience and creating a forced culture of silence? It is vital that we make space to listen, grieve, and create meaningful societal change in partnership with Asian Americans.
My guest today is Tara VanderWoude. Tara is a Korean-American. She is a social worker, advocate, and educator. As an adoptee, she writes and speaks often about the complexity of adoption as well as the Asian American experience. She is married to a Dutch man who was her high school sweetheart and they have adopted two children from South Korea. She is also a founding board member of Korean-Focus Indiana. She speaks with power, insight, and eloquence about her experiences as an Asian American woman.
As always, I like for you to know my guests as people as well. Tara is an educator who is really excited about the coming break.
- Liesel Mertes
What are some of your favorite things to do in central Indiana? You will not be going anywhere for spring break. What will you do to enjoy the time there?
- Tara VanderWoude
So my favorite time of day are the mornings. And so for me, I work full time outside of the home on a schedule, a school schedule. So you can imagine I have to be out the door decently early. So in central Indiana, in my own home, I will just be thrilled to wake up and to be able to stay at home during my favorite part of the day. Whether that means a slow morning, whether that means just being in my home and being able to cook and clean and do my dishes, connect with my kids, one of whom will be on spring break next week, I will just be really, really pleased to do that.
- Tara VanderWoude
As simple as it sounds, I love being home. And, you know, we do a lot of walking and a lot of running and a lot of outside backyard front porch. So during covid times, that's kind of where we find ourselves, you know.
- Liesel Mertes
Do you have a favorite breakfast that accompany your favorite time of day? Like, is it wrapped with food at all or a cup of coffee?
- Liesel Mertes
Because I'm also a morning lover and if I'm talking about mornings, breakfast has to be woven somewhere in is my favorite meal.
- Tara VanderWoude
Yes, it's funny you ask, that is an important part of my life. So coffee and I am very fortunate. My husband does not drink coffee, but every single morning he brings me coffee in bed. I know every day of the week, of the month of the year. So definitely starting with some coffee and then I eat a little bit later. But when I'm at school, I can not have this. But when I am home, I do have this breakfast I wake and it is sauteed brussel sprouts with a couple of eggs and some pickled onions.
- Tara VanderWoude
And this this dip that I get at Costco, it sounds very eclectic, but I just really like it. And I eat it many days of the week.
- Liesel Mertes
That sounds actually very tasty. I like the pickled onions as well being thrown in with that.
- Liesel Mertes
I have read some of your bio, but would you give me just like a ten thousand foot view of your vocational trajectory, some of the things you've done and been involved with?
- Tara VanderWoude
Sure, sure. So after college, I spent a very short time as a medical social worker and I worked at a large hospital in Michigan. Did that just for a little bit before my husband and I moved.
- Tara VanderWoude
I then went and worked for Healthy Families of Indiana. And so I did a home based services and actually worked in three quite rural counties, which was a very new experience for me. Working in the rural world did that for a bit and then I moved into some gerontology work.
- Tara VanderWoude
It was also home based and we just really aimed to keep individuals safe at home. And then from there, I found myself in the world of adoption and worked as an adoption social worker for several years. Did that help families throughout the process of adopting?
- Tara VanderWoude
And then from there, let's see, what did I do? I started some independent consulting and some education on post adoption issues as it relates to race, adoption and identity.
- Tara VanderWoude
And then I also found myself working for the school to make my kids attend and currently am working as an assistant dean of students at a at a lower school and elementary school.
- Liesel Mertes
I have so many questions that we could delve into, but with limited four by the time of one episode. And so we've had some some prior episodes where people have talked as adoptive parents. We've got that perspective. But I would love to hear more. And there's so much in our current events, like in this immediate week in March of twenty twenty one, where with this horrible killing in Atlanta and just frankly, the rhetoric of the last year under the Trump administration with covid that I imagine it has been particularly difficult to be an Asian-American woman.
- Liesel Mertes
Could you tell me a little bit about what the events of just even the the Atlanta shooting, what that how you received that in your person, in your body? What was that like for you to be
- Tara VanderWoude
Sure. Sure. You are absolutely right. It's it's been an interesting ride both this past week and a half since since the shooting in Atlanta and then really this last year, like you mentioned, of just some anti Asian sentiment and some hatred that has really been highlighted this past year during the pandemic, a lot of scapegoating and blaming and violence toward toward Asian-Americans, toward people who look like me.
- Tara VanderWoude
And then I think as an adopted person who was raised by two white parents, you can only imagine that that adds an entirely other level of complexity and of missed connections, so to speak, because I am living this experience that my that my adoptive parents, that my greater extended family and community are not are not experiencing.
- Tara VanderWoude
When I think about Atlanta, you know, I actually had a friend, a friend who lives in D.C., someone who's very invested in racial justice and equity work, and she's an African-American female. And we talk about these topics regularly. She sent me a text on Tuesday night, the evening of the shooting in Atlanta. I already had put my phone to bed, so to speak, and I had not seen it.
- Tara VanderWoude
But I woke up
- Tara VanderWoude
and I saw that text and I clicked on the link to the news coverage. And then I was up. Right. You can imagine it's 2:00 in the morning. And I saw that. And I just thought, oh, no, I had already been reading about some physical violence and even murders of Asian Americans that really has been happening throughout the pandemic.
- Tara VanderWoude
And then to read about this, the shooting at three different locations that this that this man that he thought to these three different businesses, I was up for a few hours and just fell asleep for a very short time before I had to be at school.
- Tara VanderWoude
And I just I just felt a heaviness. And when I woke up, I, I didn't exactly know what what to expect, but I checked the news again and throughout that day, checked in on a lot of my Asian friends.
- Tara VanderWoude
And likewise, I had some Asian friends reaching out to me just, hey, whoa, how are you? And kind of taking in that news that that was the first kind of twenty four hours, so to speak, for for me and really before I left for school to mentioning it to both of my kids who are currently 12 and 14.
- Tara VanderWoude
Obviously my older my older child has more access at school, at high school, to the Internet throughout the day and news sources. So I knew that it would come up and I wanted to be the person that told them about this. And because we have been building in on this conversation of race and racial matters and racism toward Asian-Americans and others, it was just another conversation and really made me grateful for for the previous conversations and work that we had done really within our family just to create this atmosphere where we can talk about such topics.
- Liesel Mertes
There's a lot that for white members of majority culture that we are just beginning to read and discuss more about, about the lived experience of Asian-Americans, our news cycle is highlighting some of those things. I think it's a really important conversation to engage in. If you were making generalizations and saying, I wish that the majority culture could understand this aspect about what it is to be Asian-American right now, what are some of the things that come to mind?
- Tara VanderWoude
OK, ok, sure. Yeah. When I when I think about that, you know, I feel like so often the Asian-American experience gets lost. Like I said, you know, in this in this racialized society that we that we all enjoy. And so I I think that there's a number of things, a number of things come come to mind. But it's almost as if we're invisible on one hand. Right. Because when we have conversations about race relations, it is a black white conversation often.
- Tara VanderWoude
And, you know, my own daughter once just said, are we black? Like, I just wear black, right. Because she very, very seldom would hear anyone mention Asian or would hear anyone mention Latino. So she's trying to figure this out. We're not even in the room when you don't even say that we're here. And so what? What does that do? And it's almost I don't want to say it's neglect that's too strong of a word, but it does do something to your psyche.
- Tara VanderWoude
And in some ways, it's like, all right, keep your head down more. Don't say anything. Don't rock the boat. This isn't about us. So that kind of comes comes to mind.
- Tara VanderWoude
And then another thing that comes to mind is you've probably maybe read that people just assume that Asians are very white adjacent, so to speak, that we're closer to white and so other perhaps racial groups, they perceive us perhaps in that way. And what's interesting is that I feel like we're never quite white enough, so to speak, whatever that means, and then we're never black enough or of color enough, so to speak, as well.
- Tara VanderWoude
And so I think perhaps different groups perceive us differently based on perhaps what is what is comfortable for them or maybe what is you know, they point out the differences in us, so to speak. So.
- Tara VanderWoude
You know, the Asian American history is rich and complex and nuanced, and I have not even done enough work and reading in that area, but just the little that I've started to just self teach myself. That's another another point is in our US history, we don't talk a lot about the Asian American experience, so to speak.
- Tara VanderWoude
We don't talk a lot about, you know, that the eighteen hundreds and we don't talk a lot about the different legislation. We don't talk a lot about the exclusion of of different people groups when it comes to some of the different ethnic groups of of Asia. So hopefully that's helpful.
- Tara VanderWoude
When when you think of our experiences, it's that of for me speaking for myself, it's of where do I fit in when I'm not even mentioned? And then it is can I even speak out? Because I've been told often that how dare you speak about your hardships or your your racialized experiences because so-and-so has it worse.
- Tara VanderWoude
I very much remember a conversation with an extended family member and I was just sharing some really hurtful things. We saw that happen to me because of my skin color and, you know, you know what empathy is. And a person just looked at me and it's like, well, you're not black, so you should be thankful.
- Tara VanderWoude
And I just that's very I remember where I was sitting when this conversation happened, and here I am pouring out something very hateful that happened to me. And to have it completely like it doesn't matter because someone else has it worse. Yeah. And that, I think is a is a regular occurrence as well for for Asian-Americans. Certainly the model minority stereotype doesn't help that in which Asians perhaps are perceived as these hardworking individuals that achieve and everything comes well to them and their income is higher, et cetera.
- Tara VanderWoude
So I hope that's helpful. So that kind of comes to mind when you when you ask that very much.
- Liesel Mertes
How have you experienced some of that silencing or needing to go underground or just slights based on being Asian-American within your work in social spheres?
- Tara VanderWoude
Yeah, you know, I think some of the silencing simply comes from the fact that are we even in the room if we're not being mentioned? I trained it to be a CASA, a court appointed special guardian for kids who are in foster care. And I just remember being in that training room and one of the judges came in and it was a room of individuals who had identify as black, African-American or white. And then there was me and I just remember him saying, we're all gathered here together.
- Tara VanderWoude
Isn't it so great, black and white. And he just went on and it's again, one of those moments like, am I in the room? Does my experience matter? And so that comes to mind. And I think every time that that happens, it does in some way kind of chip away at the entitlement to be part of the conversation when it comes to our racialized society.
- Tara VanderWoude
And I, I do I hear the sleights about being smart and being good at math and playing the violin, and it's just not funny. And I think people think they're being humorous. But there is this deep seated, there's some deep seated beliefs about who we are as Asian-Americans.
- Tara VanderWoude
And of course, you know, you've heard of the term micro aggressions. And so as those daily slights and insults come out, that that kind of treat me as if I'm inferior or that I'm other. If it happened once, that's one thing. Right. But when you continue, like they say, to get a papercut after papercut in the same place, that cumulative effect, what does it do?
- Tara VanderWoude
And I think all of that kind of contributes to me perhaps not wanting to raise my hand and put my own experience out there. And I think I've learned with whom I can do that and with whom I cannot, based perhaps on their previous previous ways of receiving me or dismissing me. I yeah, we all have that felt safety with certain people. And when it comes to racial matters, time and experiences have have informed who I go to when when I'm hurting about something related to to race.
- Liesel Mertes
Yes. I want to want to press more into that.
- Liesel Mertes
I you know, as you were sharing a gave me a moment of reflection, even two sessions that I have led where I will talk about the experiences of black and brown Americans and how they're being highlighted right now. And I realize the implicit exclusion there.
- Liesel Mertes
And I I think, at least in my own mind, as I consider it, I think, well, I feel like yellow is a very offensive sort of a term, you know, and not descriptive. What sort of language when people are talking about the the Asian experience, you know, is it is is to say the experience of Asian-American like, do do we want to steer away from any sort of descriptor about skin color? Because I imagine there's a lot of offensive baggage.
- Liesel Mertes
How how have conversations about color felt toward you when they felt best? Like how have people referenced the Asian experience? Sure, sure.
- Tara VanderWoude
I think one of it is just when they mentioned that we are a part of the human population, when it's not simply a black white conversation and they're willing to talk about those who might be indigenous or who are Latino or who are Asian, it is OK to name those things because actually, yes, we do exist. And I know on one hand people are thinking, well, we can't possibly mention every group and we'll exclude someone. And I have grace for people.
- Tara VanderWoude
So it's not that I'm watching and policing every word, it's more that it's this cumulative norm of way of talking about our racialized society. So. Yeah, yellow, you know, I don't I don't know many Asians who like to be called yellow and and really, like you mentioned to me before this call, the continent of Asia is quite vast and it has upwards of 50 different countries and ethnicities. And so we think of we think of just the vast array of the hue of one's skin.
- Tara VanderWoude
And that's just I think that kind of goes into this social construction of race in which, you know, White became legalized, so to speak.
- Tara VanderWoude
So conversations about color, about race, so, so complicated. I feel like, because I know, too, that when we come to the table to talk about it, that different people at the table are using words and descriptors and language and operating with different definitions of such so much that we don't have the shared vocabulary or understanding even among families sometimes or even among colleagues.
- Tara VanderWoude
So it's it's it's it's complicated.
- Liesel Mertes
Well, but exactly what you said, I mean, just when to take that away, the acknowledgement that our story needs space in the room, the proverbial room and exactly what you said.
- Liesel Mertes
I mean, Asia is huge. You know, even the term Asian-American is reducing a very complex reality of your lumping together someone from the Philippines with someone from China. And those are very different lived experiences.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
We will return, in just a moment, to Tara and her insights. Which have been so, so good. But I want to take a moment to acknowledge our sponsor, Handle with Care Consulting. Employee care is essential to every area of your business, and it is really complex this year. Are you doing what you can to keep your people engaged? Are you helping them build the skills to navigate tough conversations, avoid offense, and build a more equitable culture of care for all people? If you don’t know, let Handle with Care Consulting help. With keynote offerings, certificate programs, and executive coaching, we help you live out empathy and care when it matters most.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah, you mentioned friends or colleagues that, you know, they're safe people to be able to go to and express. What are some of the things that they are doing? Well, they let you know that they are safe people.
- Tara VanderWoude
Sure. So, you know, I could start this in a number of different ways. But throughout my life, I have had experiences of hatred, discrimination, verbal assaults. I've had those experiences as it relates to me being Asian, being Korean, American. And so, you know, when you're close friends with someone, you want to share those things that hurt you or those things that stop you in your tracks. And so I think you quickly learn that when you share something, the way that that person responds, it tells you a lot.
- Tara VanderWoude
And so there are some people who want to quickly dismiss and make it all better because it's uncomfortable for them. Perhaps it could be uncomfortable for them because they don't know how to respond. And I get that a lot of us struggle with how to respond to people who are in crisis or people who are hurting. Some people are uncomfortable with it because maybe they don't think that I should be as upset about it as I am. And they think, you know, we've come a long ways.
- Tara VanderWoude
Would you rather live in the 1900s, you know, so be thankful. I think some people are uncomfortable with it because they maybe have thought some of those very things that I'm now bringing to their attention as being hurtful to me so I can I can kind of read the level of someone's comfort and entering into my pain with me or staying with me and being curious to ask questions that help me understand, help them understand.
- Tara VanderWoude
And then I know that when I bring things to some people, they just laugh because they don't know what else to say or do.
- Tara VanderWoude
And then there are people that I tell them these things and they say, well, that must really hurt or that sounds really hard. Or they say, you know what, I don't even know what to say, but I know that that was wrong and I love you and they just name it, validate my experience. They don't make an excuse for the person or the incident that's happened and they go there with me. And so I think that's just very it's just the skills of having empathy and being really being willing to be with someone in their pain or to bear witness to someone's experiences, even if it's uncomfortable for you as a friend or as the here.
- Tara VanderWoude
And so even now, this past week, different friends have extended themselves so beautifully. And, you know, there's a friend that comes to mind and she just said, I don't know how exactly to be the friend that you need right now, but I want to and I want to learn more. And I love you. And that's meaningful because she's not afraid to name that some of this is her internal. I don't even know and. Yeah, I just that's kind of what comes to mind when I think of when I think of those those friends,
- Tara VanderWoude
You know, this past week there was one colleague who just she had known I had had some great sleep. And some of it is just due to this heaviness. And some of my Asian friends that were in contact quite a bit more this week checking in on each other. And I've had some friends who've experienced some some racial hatred. And so as I carry that with them, it obviously affects me emotionally. And one colleague, I think, just heard me say I haven't gotten much sleep and I found a Starbucks card in my inbox the next morning. And it was just like, you know what, when you need your next caffeine, it's on me.
- Tara VanderWoude
That was extremely meaningful to me. A five dollar gift card. Wow. It's just that you thought of me last week. Friday, I came home and it was it turned out to be an interesting evening. And I came home. I was so excited to be home from the week. And there were flowers on my table that had been delivered and it just said to a beautiful family. And that's that's all it said. And again, that was really that was really meaningful.
- Tara VanderWoude
And just people even texting. I know that it can be on one hand, it can be exhausting because you feel like you have to respond to all of them. And I think some of that's on me. I just need to let myself off the hook because I know they don't all expect a response. Right. But just people just saying, hey, I'm thinking of you. I imagine it might have been a hard week for you and that the news is quite much.
- Tara VanderWoude
And so I'm thinking about you and I care about you. That's that's that's really meaningful to me.
- Liesel Mertes
Those are beautiful expressions and thank you for the time and reflection, you know, even as you as you described some of the ways that people miss you. I was reminded of some of the language that I use in some of my my trainings, you know, like, oh, that's that's a Buck-Up Bobby.
- Liesel Mertes
Sort of a response floating through or that's a that's a Cheer-Up Cheryl who just so ready for you to look on the bright side or the Joking Julie who just wants to make, you know, a joke or try to get through that uncomfortable moment. And it sounds like you have had encounters with many of those types and probably more as you've gone through this.
- Liesel Mertes
And, you know, I hear I hear also the the beauty of intention when it comes to empathy, you know, even even if you don't know exactly what to say.
- Liesel Mertes
There are always, you know, gestures of things you can do. Also, you know, a note to Starbucks card flowers. They're so meaningful. Yeah. Yeah.
- Liesel Mertes
What are some of the most hurtful things that have come your way, either in work settings or social circles?
- Tara VanderWoude
Sure. So, you know, being an Asian and predominantly white and or black majority areas, I feel like I'm often seen as the other. And people are just not used to seeing my face. They're just not used to seeing Asians were a small sample size, so to speak.
- Tara VanderWoude
And so I, I receive I receive comments from people of various races and various ethnic groups. Some of the most hurtful things I think have to do with the erasure that I talked of, the just the dismissal and the erasure of of our experience.
- Tara VanderWoude
And then I talked about I talk about this sometimes on my some of the consulting and education I do for for adoption, race and identity. But when you're raising an Asian female in particular, there is this objectification and exotic vacation of Asians, females, and at least I know it's uncomfortable to talk about, but I feel like it's vital, especially in light of the events of last week in Atlanta, but that it happened early on for me in high school, just starting to receive comments from men regarding who I am as as a female, but more importantly, as an Asian female.
- Tara VanderWoude
And so different comments about that are very uncomfortable from strangers and then also from from people that might be in my in my neighborhood or in my circle, a community. I remember some uncomfortable conversations with with someone that I would see regularly and he would comment on my body. And I'm sure that's why you would decided to adopt so you could just keep that body and then not wanting ever to be in his presence. I remember being in a social setting and someone saying, hey, you know, a guy saying to me, hey, can you bring all your sisters along with you?
- Tara VanderWoude
We want all of your sisters to be here, too, because he assumed I had I had many, many Korean beauties. Right. To take with me to offer to him. So comments like that. And then there have been some situations I've been followed out of places before. Men follow me and ask me if I work at a massage parlor, ask me if I do nails, tell me that I have a body as they use a description.
- Tara VanderWoude
Men, a man, I should say. Told me I look like someone in his porn magazines. That was my actually my awakening back when I was a teenager, a man coming up to me and saying that to me. And you can imagine even back then, the Internet was not what it is now. Right. So he's talking about his his paper magazines.
- Tara VanderWoude
And then there have been a few times in which some men have exposed themselves to me and have and I was with my kids when that happened.
- Tara VanderWoude
And so a lot of them really would have to do with without being particularly in Asian female, I think about safety because of the comments and even such actions that that I've experienced. And it's so interesting because you're just going about your day like you're just going about your day. And just like that, it's like it's hijacked from you.
- Tara VanderWoude
You know, I remember going for a run with my daughter and she was on her scooter. We're having so much fun together and a man starts screaming things out at me.
- Tara VanderWoude
And then he had to stop at the stoplight. And I knew that if we kept running that we would be there right next to him. And so taking my daughter and hiding behind a building with her downtown just so he could not see us and her knowing that something was up and her just hugging me and just saying it's going to be OK, you know? And I I said to her that man, just what he said to us and how he's looking at us, it's just not OK.
- Tara VanderWoude
And she and I had already started this conversation, but her kind of comforting me in that moment, you know, as a mother, that's that's both a beautiful thing and really a tragic thing, too, when our kids are confronted with with some of the ugliness, like I said, a beautiful thing and something that she was empowered to do, I think. But also this tragic loss of of that that say safety in that moment.
- Tara VanderWoude
So that's what comes to mind when I think of the really harmful and hurtful experiences that I've that I've had.
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah. Thank you for giving voice to that. It's so it's so ugly and angering.
- Tara VanderWoude
Yeah, it it is. And, you know, my kids have experienced it now and they've been called covid and coronavirus and they've been screamed at to go back to China. My son had an experience in which it was a whole group of people screaming at him and he thought it could get physical and just trying to talk with him and process with him how he should respond, what he wants to say versus what he should say if he's thinking about his personal safety. It's a lot to kind of.
- Tara VanderWoude
To talk through, because there's so many different scenarios and then just that that feeling of, wow, we shouldn't have to do this, we shouldn't have to walk through all of these scenarios in order to come out emotionally intact and physically intact. But that is the experience that we have.
- Tara VanderWoude
And most recently, right before the shooting, my son was spit at by a stranger. And I, I that was really and it still is a really hard one for me. Obviously, he's had those verbal experiences. But just for him to to explain to me what I got off my bike, I had to make sure that I didn't have any spit on me. And he had just bought, like, a can of soda or something with a buddy somewhere. And I had to make sure it wasn't on my drink. And that's just awful to experience as a mother. Yes, I know that physically he came home in one piece, but the degrading nature of such an act and then to know that your kid got that a million times over, I would rather that person spit at me.
- Tara VanderWoude
But that that's been a hard one. And then also then for people, on the other hand, to be saying Asians have everything great crazy rich Asians, you know, you don't have it as bad as this group. So those experiences of having them and then people maybe not believing you, that's tough.
- Liesel Mertes
Mhm. Yeah. Well and I imagine that the toll that that can take in your body and your psyche when you feel like there's this mountain, you know, stress and horror and especially embodying it, you know, as a mother and then, and then feeling like I don't I don't even have a socially, you know, sanctioned outlet to give voice to this. I imagine I could feel very disempowering.
- Tara VanderWoude
Yeah, and you know what's interesting is, you know, I hadn't shared verbally with many people that most recent experience with my son because when you speak it into existence, it's just it's going through it all over again.
- Tara VanderWoude
And what's so fascinating, too, and I'm sure you know this, but there's so much embarrassment and shame that has even come from that experience. For me, even though I did nothing wrong, my son did nothing wrong. But just having to even share that you were the recipient of something like that, for whatever reason, it's it's just really hard. I know it doesn't mean that we are weak or that we did something wrong. But I think to kind of what we've been talking about throughout this conversation is when we do need to share it with someone, because I did share it with some of his parents, his friends, parents, as an FYI, because I know they'll be spending time together riding bikes.
- Tara VanderWoude
I know that I'll have to also, so to speak, manage other people's responses to me sharing that, and so that can also feel like another task, so to speak. And I'll say that all of his friends, parents were great. And I've learned to kind of how to share things and to even say, you know what, I'm not in a place where I can talk about this much more. But I did want you to know this particular incident happens.
- Tara VanderWoude
And I wanted to provide that context since our kids are buddies. And that's what I did in this this incident just over over a text because sharing it, speaking it it's it's been it's tough.
- Liesel Mertes
Yeah. That makes me think of something that. Some some of my black colleagues have given voice to, which is to say it's hard enough to live the experience, then I'm asked to interpret it and educate people who are well-meaning. You know, I have to, like, go deeply into it. And I'm struck, you know, in a sideways way. That is part of what you're even doing and being a guest on this podcast. So I am grateful for that.
- Liesel Mertes
How have you do you feel that pressure sometimes socially, to to not only live through the experience, but then have to educate and inform people and contextualize the experience on their behalf?
- Tara VanderWoude
Sure. You know, it's interesting what you said, that the the interpreting that you have to do. Yes. When I share, you know, sometimes I get this pushback. Are you sure that's what they meant or what was he wearing or how old was he or this or that? And I understand so much that people want to create a framework for their own understanding. At the same time. The impact of that can be, I don't believe you or you have to prove yourself or you really have to give me every detail so I can say, yep, that was a bad thing that they didn't.
- Tara VanderWoude
You and I want to be real clear and knowing I know that that might not be people's intention, but just seeing the difference between the impact of their questions and maybe what their intention was.
- Tara VanderWoude
So there is that piece and then there is this piece of I get requests all the time of what should I read or where should I go or what would be my next book that I should read. And on one hand, I totally get it. I've devoted some of my life to this, to this education and consulting.
- Tara VanderWoude
And so when we're in a relationship and we're friends, I don't mind doing that at all because that's what friends do. We share our gifts. We share. You know, when you're my safe person and we have this relationship, we share with one another when it's a situation in which maybe we don't have that intimate of a relationship or you're just looking to me for for that knowledge and for me to do the work for you. Yes, it can feel it can feel like pressure.
- Tara VanderWoude
And, you know, I joke around at some of the education sessions I do about really making sure that you you don't expect that people of color are your learning libraries, that you can just check in and out as you wish for your for your good. And is is it at all a reciprocal relationship or are you just just expecting that person to do the work for you? And, you know, you've probably heard this and said this maybe yourself, but we do live in 2021 and we have Google and we have an extensive there are resources.
- Tara VanderWoude
Now, you have really no reason that you can't perhaps find yourself a book to read,
- Liesel Mertes
Maybe an article or a podcast or video simply they've been curated with whatever medium of choice, you know,
- Tara VanderWoude
So many curated lists that I my head's even spinning because there so much out there.
- Tara VanderWoude
So on one hand, I get it. And again, I don't want to attribute wrong intention. And I am glad whenever someone wants to learn and reaches out and I will help. But yes, if you can also maybe be mindful of that when we do this. Yes, it takes our time. And then sometimes when we're sharing situations, it might also be an emotional toll on us to relive the experience that we are sharing with you, to relive it, to answer the questions.
- Tara VanderWoude
And again, I want to be talking about some of these things. But let's let's make sure that we check the relationship that we have with that person. Do we have the right, even, so to speak, to ask such personal, intimate questions? Or are we expecting that simply because we expect that person to be the educator without without that intimate friendship already in place?
- Liesel Mertes
Well, and what I hear throughout, you know, throughout those reflections is just the importance of paying attention to the humanity of the person that you're interacting with in a social context. You know, I talk about just radical attention to someone who's gone through something hard and even just concentrating on the social cues and actually thinking like what what impact could my words have? You were describing some of the the questions and the barrage. That's a type I talk about Interrogating Edward, who, you know, at their best, they they like getting to the bottom of things and they're great at research and understanding, and that's a high value.
- Liesel Mertes
But when that's deployed in a social situation where you're just tone deaf to the emotion of the person in front of you and you're just focused on learning or getting to the bottom of things like. Rarely feels good to the person on the receiving end of it, you know, they feel like they're being dissected by that person instead of paid attention to in that moment and how it feels.
- Tara VanderWoude
Yeah, I love that Interrogating Edward. I'm afraid that, you know of any of those Cheer-Up Cheryls and all of those that you just just shared throughout our conversation.
- Tara VanderWoude
I might lean toward being an Interrogating Edward myself. So I'm glad I have a name for that.
- Liesel Mertes
And, frankly, the more I teach the stuff, like when, you know, over the course of now, almost three years, I began and I was like, I'm just a few of these types. Like, I tend to be a Fix-It Frank or a Commiserating Candace, but the more I teach it, I'm like, oh, I can go to all of these trouble when under stress I can speak in multiple tongues of empathy misses, especially when I'm under my own stress.
- Liesel Mertes
So it's just the importance of attention.
- Liesel Mertes
Wow. I don't care if I want to be cognizant of your time.
- Liesel Mertes
Is there anything that you would like to add that I didn't ask you?
- Tara VanderWoude
I don't know that there is anything that that I that I want to add other than, you know, knowing that we have the support of other people who are not Asian during this time, that is really, really meaningful as well. That other people will talk about it will call out the hate depending on if you're a social media user or if you're someone who uses it regularly.
- Tara VanderWoude
Is this going to be part of what you're talking about online? Obviously, there are some people who don't step foot online. And so we would I wouldn't expect that of that person. But if you're an avid social media user and you use that to talk about the things that matter to you, are you willing to incorporate this?
- Tara VanderWoude
Are you willing to send that text to your friends, to the to the people that you know, to say, hey, I imagine it could have been a hard week that has been that has been so supportive of me, is just knowing that I'm not in it alone, not alone individually, but then not even alone as as a Korean American, as an Asian-American, but that there are others cross ethnic, cross racial who who care about this and who want to learn, grow and who want to take action when necessary toward toward the this hatred and this anti Asian sentiment of this past year plus.
- Liesel Mertes
Thank you. That's really good.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
Here are three key take-aways from my conversation with Tara.
- The Asian American experience is all too often overlooked and underacknowledged.How is your language compounding this sense of exclusion? As you talk about equity in the workplace and in culture, are you remembering to include the marginalization of Asian Americans? This was a personal take-away for me and I am going to be adjusting my language, moving forwards, to incorporate the Asian experience when I talk about excluded groups.
- It really is THAT bad.If you are a member of a majority White culture, you have probably had the privilege of not thinking about the Asian American experience. As I listened to Tara, to the MANY stories she had of sexual predation and harassment, to the stories of threat and humiliation that her children have experienced, I realize there is so much going on that I have no idea about…and that is in addition to the awful violence populating our news page. Tara encouraged us, if you have a social media presence where you talk about things you care about, give voice to this reality. Help build awareness that Anti-Asian hate is not OK. I have linked resources in the show notes because remember, the Internet has a TON of helpful resources and you should not make your Asian friend the equivalent of a good Google search.
- As a friend or coworker, work to pay radical attention to your Asian friend or colleague as they express feelings of pain.Allow them to express their feelings without forcing them to justify them (like an Interrogating Edward). Send a text, or a Starbucks card. And if you don’t know what to say, that is OK too. You can say something like, “I don’t even know what to say, but I want you to know that I hate this for you and I am here with you.”
OUTRO
Resources
Stop AAPI Hate: The center tracks and responds to incident of hate, violence, harassment, discrimination, shunning, and child bullying against Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders in the United States. https://stopaapihate.org/about/
Anti-Asian Violence Resources: https://anti-asianviolenceresources.carrd.co